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5 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING
CITY OF LAKEVILLE
6
Thursday,.March 15, 2001
7 6:00 p.m.
a 9
o PLANNING COMMISSIONERS PRESENT:
Y 10
$ KARL DROTNING, CHAIR
~ 11 DAVID BELLOWS
N JERRY COMER
~ 12 DALE DETJEN
JERRY GRENZ, ALTERNATE
13 SHARON-KOT
TOM MICHAUD
14 JIM PUNCOCHAR, EX-OFFICIO
o WENDY WULFF
15
N
O
m 16
Q, STAFF PRESENT:
0 17
ROBERT ERICKSON, CITY ADMINISTRATOR
m 18 TIM HANSON, CITY ENGINEER
ARLYN GRUBBING, COMMUNITY & ECONOMLC DEVELOPMENT DIR.
_ 19 RON MULLENBACH, ASSOCIATE PLANNER
ROGER KNUTSON, CITY ATTORNEY
20 PENNY BREVIG, RECORDING SECRETARY.
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22
23
24 REPORTER BY DEBRA MCCAULEY POLLARD
PARADIGM REPORTING & CAPTIONING INC.
25 1400 RAND TOWER
S27 MARQUETTE AVENUE SOUTH
MINNEAPOLIS, MINNESOTA 55402
(612) 339-054.5
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1 I N D E X
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3 CALL TO ORDER AND ROLL CALL - Page 3
4
5 PRESENTATIONS:
6 By Mr. Sellergren - Page 8
7 By Mr. Licht - Page 27
8
9 MOTIONS: PAGE
10 01.14 - Receipt of documents into record 68-69
11 01.15 - Receipt of documents into record 123-124
12 01.16 - Close of Public Hearing 145-146
13 01.17 - Application for Amendment to 234-235
2D20 Land Use Plan
I4
01.18 - Stipulation. 235-237
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16
MEMBERS OF THE PUBLIC:
17
Lee Willner - 72 Todd Burnhauser - 112.
18 Steve Sokes - 74 Scott Engh - 115
Jean Baudhuin - 80 Jackie Klesch - 118
I9 Mike Schutz - 85 Mary Wescott - 121
Deb Sodergren - 86 Pat Haley - 124
20 JoAnn Wilson - 87 Ken Mosier - 125
Amelia Damlo - 88 Jim Ondov - 129
21 Judy Strahan - 92 Bill Cosgriff - 13I
Shawn Sodergren - 93 Joanne Mosier - 132.
22 Rick Krueger - 95 Donna .Heinz - 134
Meg~Scharmer - 99 Frank Holley - 136
23 Natalie Curwick - 102 Rob Rutan - 140
Tim Watts - 105 Marcia Appel - 141
24 Putty Wetzel - 108 Luke Hellier -.142
Mary Hokanson - 110 Wally Hilgenberg - 143
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1 ~ CHAIR DROTNING: The meeting will come to
2 order, please.. The Planning Commission Meeting,
3 City of Lakeville, March 15th, 2001, is now .called
4 to order. Roll call, please.
5 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
6 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Here.
7 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
8 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Here.
9 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
10 COMMISSIONER KOT; Here.
11 SECRETARY BREVIG: Drotning?-
12 CHAIR DROTNING: Here.
13 SECRETARY BREVIG: Comer?
14 COMMISSIONER COMER: Here.
15 SECRETARY BREVIG: Detjen?
16 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: Here.
17 SECRETARY BREVIG: Wulff?
18 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Here.
19 SECRETARY BREVIG.: Puncochar?
20 EX-OFFICIO COMMISSIONER PUNCOCHAR: Here.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: -Item 3 on the Agenda is
22 Approval of Meeting Minutes: February 15th, 2.001,
23 Planning Commission Meeting Minutes; February 15th,
24 2001, Planning Commission Work Session. Are there
25 any additions or corrections?
4
1 (No response . )
2 CHAIR DROTNING: Hearing. none, they will
3 stand as presented.
4 Announcements: Are there any additions or
5 corrections to the meeting agenda?
6 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR GRUSSING:
7 Mr. Chairman, just to bring your attention to the
8 several items that were handed out at this
9 evening's meeting, first is the minutes from the
10 Environmental Affairs Committee which held their
11 meeting on March 13th, and also additional
12 correspondence that was received in the office
13 prior to tonight's meeting. That was all we had at
14 hand.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you. Item Number
16 5 is.a Public Hearing: The Avalon Real Estate
17 Group, L.L.C. Consideration of the application of
18 The Avalon Real Estate Group, L.L.C., for an
19 amendment to the 2020 Land Use Plan. The amendment
20 would change the land use designation from Office
21 Park/Business Campus to Commercial on approximately
22 96 acres of land for the proposed TmberCrest at
23 Lakeville project, located north of County State
24 Aid Highway 60, east of Interstate 35, west of
25 County State Aid Highway 50.
5
1 CITY ATTORNEY KNUTSON: Mr. Chairman,
2 I've duly published and mailed notice in accordance
3 with State Statutes for this duly advertised
4 hearing. I would also note that tonight, we're
5 having the proceedings taken down by a court
6 reporter to get an accurate transcript of tonight's
7 proceedings. Thank you.
8 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you, Mr. Knutson.
9 We have with us I think Mr. Sellergren. Will you
10 be doing the presentation from Avalon at this time?
11 MR. SELLERGREN: (Moves head up and
12 down.)
13 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. Let me just have
14 a second first. I'd like to do one minor order of
15 business. This is something we normally don't do.
16 The members of the Planning Commission are
17 volunteers that serve the community and many of us
18 have been on the Planning Commission as residents
19 for many years and it's unusual that I would ask
20 them to introduce themselves individually, but we
21 are all residents volunteering our time to serve
22 the community as best we can. I'll start with
23 Commissioner Wulff.
24 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Thank you, Mr.
25 Chair. My name is Wendy Wulff. I've been living
6
1 in Lakeville for a little over nine years. and I
2 have been on the Planning Commission for five
3 years.
4 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: My name is Dale
5. ~Detjen. I'm a 13-year Lakeville resident. And
6 prior to serving on the Planning. Commission, I
7 served .ten years under the Economic Development
8 Commission for the City of Lakeville.
9 COMMISSIONER COMER: My name is Jerry
10 Comer. I've been a citizen of Lakeville for nine
11 years but on the Planning Commission for three
12 years.
13 CHAIR DROTNING: I'm Karl Drotning. L've
14 been a citizen of Lakeville for 22 years. I served
15 on both .the Strategic Growth Task Force in '92;
16 '98, the County Road 42 Advisory Task Force, the
17 I-35 Solutions Alliance, and several other
18 transportation and community-related groups. I've
19 been on the Planning Commission for a little over
20 three years.
21 COMMISSIONER KOT: I'm Sharon Kot and
22 I've been on the Planning Commission for four
23 years, and I've lived in Lakeville for 16.
24 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: My name is David
25 Bellows. I've been a citizen or Lakeville for 17
1 years and I've been on the Planning Commission for
2 approximately three years.
3 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: My name is Tom
4 Michaud. I've lived in Lakeville. a little over
5 three years and I've just started on the Planning
6 Commission in January.
7 EX-OFFICIO COMMISSIONER PUNCOCHAR: My
8 name is Jim Puncochar. I'm with the police
9 department as an ex-officio member of this group,
10 which. means I'm a nonvoting member but I serve as
11 an assistant to the Planning Commission. I've been
12 living in Lakeville for seven .years and been with
13 the police department for seven years, also.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: And we also have in the
15 audience Commissioner Alternate Jerry Grenz who has
' 16 maybe you can yell at them and tell. them who you
17 are.
18 ALTERNATE COMMISSIONER GRENZ: I'm Jerry
19 Grenz. I've lived in Lakeville for 29 years. Just
20 joined as an alternate in January. I've been on
21 the Park and Rec Committee for..~3 years ,and I've
22 been on the Fire Department for 25 years.
23 CHAIR DROTNING: We're here to serve you.
24 Now, Mr. Sellergren, would you like to share
25 with us the proposal from Avalon Real Estate Group.
8
1 MR. DAVE SELLERGREN: Thank you, Mr.
2 Chairman, Members of the Commission, and members of
3 the public.
4 My name is Dave Sellergren. I'm a land use
5 lawyer. I've been practicing this land use 1 aw for
6 about 28 years. I'm here tonight representing The
7 Avalon Group.,. which has a contract to purchase
8 approximately 96 acres of land in the northeast
9 quadrant of County Road 60 and I-35.
10 The Avalon Group has three principals.. They
11 consist of Kevin Brazner, Barbara Van Auken, and
12 Frank Trestman. We have a consulting team that has
13 been working with Avalon with respect to their
14 objectives and they consist of John Payton, with
15 Parsons Transportation Group, its Site Works
16 Studio; Korsunsky Krank Erickson Architects;.
17 Peterson Environmental Consulting Group, which has
18 been addressing the question of wetlands and tree
19 inventory; Benshoof & Associates, traffic
20 consultant.
21 You have the City has been presented some
22 time ago, a few weeks ago, an application book
23 dated February of 2001. It has l9 pages of text
24 and 47 pages of exhibits in it. Excuse me. 47
25 exhibits, some of which are multiples of pages.
9
1 The exhibits are primarily .excerpts from the
2 existing Comprehensive Plan Update. The City's
3 Transportation Plan and other utility plans,
4 excerpts from the zoning ordinance, a preliminary
5 detailed traffic analysis--it is preliminary; a
6 more detailed one is in the works--and a schematic
7 site plan.
8 This presentation assumes that you .have all
9 read those portions of the application that you
10 were interested in. I'm not going to take you
it through, word by word, everything that's in there,
12 but I do wish to summarize not only for you but for
13 all the members of the audience and those that are
14 on TV to highlight certain parts of the
15 application.
16 First, let me say that you also have. an
17 extensive report .from the planning staff and it's a
18 consolidated report, gotten from its planning
19 staff, engineering staff, and the consultant the
20 City has retained to examine the application to
21 this date.
22 We have no disagreement at all with the
23 analysis that's in that report and, in particular,
24 we have no disagreement with the recommended
25 conditions. Should you be inclined to vote
10
1 favorably, we have no objection to the recommended
2 conditions on page 19 of the report.
3 This is the first step, we hope, in a process
4 which will come to fruition, we .believe, in a
5 550,000 square foot shopping center, consisting of
6 retail, service, restaurant, and office uses on
7 approximately 96 acres of ..land.
8 The current discussion for tonight has to do
9 with our requesting an amendment to the
10 Comprehensive Plan and changing the current.
11 -designation from Office Park/Business Campus. to a
12 Commercial designation.
13 The property is currently designated for
14 Office Park/Business Campus uses and I suspect that
15 the planning staff will educate the. Planning.
i6 Commission, to the extent it needs any education,
17 about what could go on that site. I may respond to
18 that just a little bit later..
19 A comprehensive plan, we believe, for this
20 city and other cities in land use law is generally
21 a fairly dynamic and flexible document .because each
22 application almost always raises issues that aren't..
23 addressed in the general policies and goal
24 statements of the comprehensive plan.
25 Your plan specifically says that the goals
11
1 and policies can be used as a benchmark against
2 which development requests and proposed plans can
3 be assessed. Avalon believes that many of the
4 goals and policies in the plan related. to growth
5 management, land use, commercial activity, and
6 transportation all support the proposed development
7 application. We are merely requesting,
8 essentially, an amendment from one commercial
9 designation to another.
10 The next .step of the process, should you vote
11 should you and the Council vote favorably, would
12 be a rezoning, a site plan review, a subdivision, a
13 development agreement, and a highly detailed
14 analysis of the .specifics of the proposal. The
15 specifics of the proposal are really beyond the
16 scope of .the decision before you as I think Mr.
17 Licht will indicate.
18 Your Comprehensive Plan is broken down into a
19 .number of sections and I just want to go over them
20 in very quick terms. The first one is City-Wide
21 Issues and there are some commercial goals stated
22 in the City.-Wide Issues section, one of which. is
23 establishing vital retail and service locations.
24 Another is promoting balanced commercial activity
25 that is viable and responsive to the needs of the
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1 community and the surrounding market area.
2 The Comprehensive Plan begins with a
3 discussion of the city-wide issues and it
4 recognizes, in particular, the need for additional
5 .commercial development along Interstate 35. It
6 also indicates that the idea of increasing
7 diversity of goods and services and tax base in
8 your city and, again, particularly along Interstate
9 35.
10 In 1999, there was a community surve~t that
11 indicated that 96 percent of the respondents to
12 that survey which was conducted by the City have to
13 go elsewhere to seek their basic service needs,
14 such as grocery, restaurant, discount, and
15 clothing.
16 From a city-wide perspective, we believe this
17 application would respond to a number of the goals
18 that we've just gone over in the city-wide section.
19 There's another section in the Comp Plan
20 called .Growth Management .and it contains specific
21 goals and policies outlined which are particularly..
22 responsive to increasing the tax base and
23 increasing the diversity of the tax base and, with
24 particular emphasis, while these new. businesses
25 locate and, if they do, to maintain the development
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1 of high architectural quality.
2 This project will significantly increase the
3 tax base in the community. There's a projection in
4 the staff report that it would generate $3.8
5 million a year in taxes. Not all of it goes to the
6 City; much of it goes to the School District, but
7 there is that analysis in your staff report.
8 Secondly, with respect to the question on
9 architectural quality, I did. indicate to you. that
10 Krosunsky, Krank, and Erickson are the architects
11 .for .the project. Krosunsky and that particular
12 architectural firm based here in the Twin Cities
13 has won numerous awards on architectural quality
14 for, in particular, its retail centers.
15 It is the developer. It is the architect of
16 record for a project known as Tamarack Village in
17 Woodbury, for Arbor Lakes in Maple Grove, and for
18 Riverdale Village in Coon Rapids. So we are
19 confident that as we go through the process, that
20 the architecture will be one which. the City.
21 ultimately is .quite proud of.
22 Clearly, this project will attract new
23 businesses. We have had very positive discussions
24 with retailers .and restaurateurs who-are very -
25 indicated coming to your community at this
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1 particular location. Clearly, the location
2 adjacent to 35 and County Road 60 and the planned
3 improvements for that area and its visibility are
4 the kinds of things that attract high quality
5 retailers and restaurateurs.
6 Another category you have in your Comp Plan
7 is Land .Use and it really breaks down into two
8 suctions. First is the land use impact on the site•
9 itself; and then, secondly, the impact or the
10 compatibility of a proposed land use with adjacent
11 land. uses.
12 First, with respect to the site. This
13 property is located in what is characterized as
14 Planning District No. 1. One of the primary goals
15 of Planning District No. 1 is to promote commercial
16 development in the area surrounding I-35.
17 It is true that there is emphasis on County
18 Road 46 and County Road 50. However, the general
19 policies which are supportive of development along
20 I-35 also .support this particular location.
21 There are eight specific street improvements
22 or roadway improvements recommended for Planning
23 District No. 1 and the first two priorities involve
24 upgrades to County Road 60 and that includes
25 constructing a full interchange at I-35; that is,
15
1 completing the south legs of the intersection.--
2 interchange, and the second is to improve County
3 Road 60 as it functions as an east-west,
4 high-density, arterial minor arterial street.
5 This road classification, even though it says minor
6 arterial, by the .way, is the highest road
7 classification that you have in your Transportation
8 Plan, except for Interstate 35.
9 There is language in the Comprehensive Plan
Z0 that specifically-says: That we intend to locate
11 the most intense commercial and office land use
12 along-the freeway and a graduated reduction of
13 residential densities moving westward away from the
14 freeway. This is on page 163 of the Comp Plana
15 .And we believe putting this density next to the
16 freeway is consistent and it would reflect a
17 decrease in density as .you move west of the freeway
18 because we know there's residential to the west.
19 In this context, it's important to note that
20 there is little difference between the current
21 ~ guiding of Office Park/Business Campus and the
22 requested Commercial designation in terms of the
23 impact on the site.
24 In either instance, there will be grading,
25 there will be tree removal, but on the other hand,
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1 the staff report. indicates a number of ways in
2 which the schematic site plan addresses the issues,
3 and I'll talk about those in a little more detail.
4 Under the Commercial excuse me. Under the
5 Office Park/Business Campus, the appropriate zoning
6 is CC and there are a number of uses similar to
7 that which we have in mind which could go there.
8 Particularly, it allows 15 percent retail right
9 there.
10 In addition,. uses include indoor commercial
11 recreation, commercial printing, manufacturing of
12 products, compounding of products, assembly of
13 products. The latter of this is all under a
14 category called Special Uses. There is some
15 discretion in the City on whether to approve those;
16 but they are uses which often appear in a business.:
17 campus sitting.
18 There's another section of the plan which
19 places importance on attracting. large contemporary
20 retailers, which will increase local jobs and the
21 tax base. Increasing the. local jobs and
22 diversification of the tax base will capitalize on
23 in-place infrastructure.
24 And that's important here because all of the
25 .infrastructure is in place. You have utility
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1 systems there. This is within the MUSA. .There are
2 immediate plans. to upgrade County Road 60 and the
3 interchange two south legs of the interchange,
4 whether or not this proposal goes forward. Those
5 are going to happen this year,. next year, .and in
6 the future,. and they're planned by the County, the
7 City, and even MNDOT.
8 The next category of land use has to do with
9 compatibility of adjacent uses. First, let's
10 indicate that there are wetlands on the site. We
11 are protecting a substantial portion of them in the
12 north. There is a central wetland which we axe
13 they're a so leaving alone. They're going to
14 design around it.
15 But in terms of the adjacent uses, we have a
16 railroad on the east. There is some designated
17 office. use immediately to the east of the railroad
18 right-of-way. The City owns 17 acres of parkland
19 in that area. Then even further to the north, on
20 the east, there's an area designated for high
21 density residential use.
22 If you look at the schematic site plan, the
23 separation of the buildings on the east side, from
24 the east property line, increases dramatically as
25 you go north so the benefit of the design is that
18
1 the buildings will be farther away in the north
2 ..area where there is a planned high density
3 residential.
4 The most sensitive area, probably, in terms
5 of immediate impact is the Acorn Heights
6 Subdivision on 181st Street. In that area, there
7 is about 15 to 16 acres of land that's. going to
8 remain untouched. They will probably be going back
9 in there and doing some additional tree plantings,
10 et cetera, and that will all be part of the. site
11 plan review process.
12 But the point is that there is a number of
13 acres and approximately 750 feet of separation
14 between the Acorn Heights Subdivision and where we
15 are at least conceptually indicating the Target.
16 store would be located. So in terms of immediate
17 impact, the most directly affected neighborhood,
18 we've done everything we can to minimize the impact..
19 there.
20 On the south is County Road 60. Again, it's
21 designated to be a minor principal minor
22 arterial and it's going to be upgraded to four-Lane
23 divided, all the. way from Scott County line to
24 Cedar Avenue someday. The current plan is to run
25 it to County Road 50 by 2005 in this four-lane
19
1 divided format.
2 So that functions as a human-made barrier, if
3 you will, to the neighborhood to the south. But
4 just as important and maybe even more important,
5 there is a substantial rise in land as you go north
6 off. of County Road 60 and that sort of pre-existing
7 natural berm'is going to .remain, except to the
8 extent that the relocation of Kenrick Avenue and
9 the access at Orchard Trail, we'll have to cut
10 through that. But there .will be sort of a natural
11 berming that's just going to be there except where
12 the cuts where the road has to go.
13 Now. that I'm talking about County Road 60,
14 obviously, transportation is a major issue, not
15 only in this community but region-wide. We've all
16 .found it more difficult to get to and from work and
17 to just take care of short convenience trips.
18 I~mentioned to you some of the plans, and I
19 think you're quite familiar with them. But
20 basically, Kenrick Avenue is going to be relocated
21 to the east and it will be a major north-south.
22 collector street that goes along with the east-west
23 minor arterial, which is the County Road 60
24 upgrade.
25 This is a product of a number of studies over
20
1 the years, so far as I know, but, in particular, we
2 cited in our report the CSAH 42 Corridor Study as
3 well as the. 1999 Transportation Plan.
4 And one of the things to focus on, we
5 believe, in terms of this proposal, is that we will
6 be taking advantage of this location of the planned
7 functional capacity increase on County Road 60;
8 and, in addition, a number of those retail trips
9 that are currently having to move north to
10 Burnsville, move north to the County 42/Cedar
11 Avenue intersection, that area of commercial, those
12 trips --.some of those trips will now not have to
13 get on the system to go which will presumably make
14 it more convenient for your citizens, number one;
15 and;. number two, reduce the congestion on those
16 roads.
17 I mentioned to you the timing for these road
18 improvements. I believe they are sufficiently
19 that the planners and the builders are sufficiently
20 confident that these roads are going to happen in
21 the immediate future, but I'll leave that to the
22 staff to explain to you just how imminent thes e
23 improvements are.
24 We did a trip generation comparison to
25 compare what we had in mind here to the possibility
21
1 of the uses on the site for office and the uses
2 that are not only office but the other uses that
3 are permitted within the district.
4 And the conclusion of the report, and it's in
5 some detail and I won't. go through it, is that both
6 in the morning and in the evening, our proposal.
7 will generate less trips. There's another as we
8 all know, that shopping centers don't have an a.m.
9 peak hour problem because they just simply don't.
10 open at the time of day when people are going to
11 work.
12 But the p.m. peak.hour even is a smaller
13 .number. Now, some people would argue with the
14 amount of development we assumed, but we believe
15 it's a reasonable number and we did a site plan to
16 see if it could work and it would work.
17 We made some accommodations in our plan to
18 address the pedestrian movements. We are going to
19 plan a trail system that will link with County 60
20 and, as I mentioned before, within the site. All
21 the rest of .the infrastructure is in place.
22 There will be wetland impact. A good chunk
23 of them are going to be attributable to the road
24 improvements, which are going to happen in any
25 event. The location of those particular road
' 22
1 improvements; that is, the Kenrick location and the
2 Orchard Trail location, across the street from
3 them, are settled. They've been approved by the
4 City and Dakota County.. So the road's kind of go
5 going to go about where it is, no matter what
6 kind of use is made there. And 2.8 acres of the
7 wetland impact is attributable to the roads
8 themselves.
9 There is another plus or minus acre impact
10 that we see is probably going to be attributable to
11 the proposed development. We will mitigate those,
12 we will minimize those, we will do our best to
13 avoid, and we've already made a number of
14 adjustments in the site plan seeking to minimize
15 the impact.
16 There's always an issue, with this kind of
17 development, with stormwater quality, both quality
18 and the quantity. The vast bulk of this water will
19 ultimately move into Lake Marion. There is some
20 detailed discussion in the staff report regarding
21 how the water is going to get to the backwater of
22 Lake Marion and, thence, into the lake.
23 There is extensive discussion fairly
24 extensive discussion, not as detailed as the
25 engineering reports but fairly extensive, about how
23
1 ..the water is handled. It basically goes into
2 stormwater ponds and these stormwater ponds are
3 designed to function as infiltration basins so you
4 get a recharge of the groundwater..
5 The it will follow what'sknown as
6 National Urban Runoff Program Guidelines and the
7 Minnesota Pollution Control Agency's Best
8 Management Practices. All of these are
9 requirements, which we would do with any of them,
10 but they are clearly requirements of the .City and
11 everything we do will comply with all the
12 requirements of the City.
13 There's a fairly significant amount of open
14space, not park, necessarily, but undeveloped open
15 space in our concept. Approximately 28 acres is
16 identified by the staff report as to be preserved
17 either through conservation easement or park
18 dedication. We believe that that number is a
19 workable number.
20 In addition, there's a substantial area in
21 ~ the middle which is not designated for that purpose
22 but we will be protecting that and, pursuant to the
23 development agreement, I have little doubt that
24 there will be an additional level of protection to
25 make sure that doesn't get developed.
24
1 So we're going to end up with we think
2 someplace in the 35 to 40 acres of undeveloped
3 land. At least I shouldn't say undeveloped but
4 open area. Simply would not have buildings,
5 parking lots, or streets on.
6 These are details that will go forward, but
7 we fully intend to comply with the 30 percent
8 requirement which is currently in the CC
9 designation. There's some suggestion that that
10 does not apply to the designation. we're seeking;
11 that is, Commercial, and it doesn't, technically,
12 but we will meet that requirement in the staff
13 recommendation that gets you a big step there.
14 So, in sum, we think there are five primary
15 factors which indicate that our request is
16 consistent with the goals .and policies of the
17 Comprehensive Plan a It is true that we are asking
18 to change your Land Use Plan, the map itself, but
19 there are a variety of plans and policies in the
20 current plan which warrant amendment to the Land
21 Use Plan.
22 First, it's a dynamic document. Second, the
23 proposed modification from Office Park/Business
24 Campus to Commercial is not a significant change in
25 terms of potential on-site or off-site impacts.
25
1 Second, the City has presented a singular
2 opportunity to capture. a high-quality retail,
3 service, restaurant, and office development, which
4 your polls indicate the citizens would like. to have
5 in your community. Maybe they don't need them in
6 exactly this spot but we .think this. spot is one of
7 the best places to have them because we know we'll
8 be able to qualify to capture the. really
9 high-quality operators with this location, and
10 others may be more questionable.
11 Third, the planned upgrade of I-35 at County
12 Road 60 to a full interchange will provide
13 convenient .and suitable access at this location,
14 and with the access points aligned at Kenrick and
15 Orchard just as the County and the City have
16 decided they need to be.
17 And this, I believe,. is extraordinary because
18 even to the extent that this particular proposal
19 attracts traffic from other from someplace other
20 than citizens of Lakeville, they'll be getting
21 there right off the regional system so it will not
22 have a negative impact on your community in terms
23 of drawing others in because they're right next to
24 the freeway.
25 And for those of your citizens who are in the
26
1 area, they don't .have to drive so far to get to the
2 retail services and many, we believe, ultimately
3 will be using County Road 60 because. it's
4 designated to be a minor arterial.
5 Fourth, our design approach with this team
6 that I described earlier is to exit as much as
7 possible in harmony with the environment:
8 utilizing the wetlands, avoiding the wetlands,
9 trails, and natural amenities, avoiding them as
10 much as possible, using them in the right way.
11 There is no doubt there's going to be a
12 substantial amount of grading on that site. You
13 can't put parking and buildings on there, but we're
14 going to do the best we can. And I think the
15 primary question is: Would it be any better with
16 office/manufacturing/warehousing kinds of uses, and
17 we .would suggest not.
18 Last, this proposed land use will promote
19 will create an equal or lesser impact on the road
20 systems as to any alternative uses. We believe the
21 comparison we've done is a reasonable one and it
22 does indicate .there will be less impact. And we
23 all know shopping centers don't open at the time
24 people are going to work.
25 So that's our proposal. We ask you to
. 27
1 consider everything that was in this written
2 submission and whatever I may have added in this
3 presentation.. And if ..questions arise, I'm
4 certainly here to respond to any questions, but
5 we'll be taking notes very carefully. Thanks.
6 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you, Mr.
7 Sellergren. The City has retained three
8 consultants to prepare a report on the- request and
9 those are Mr. David Licht from Northwest Associated
10 Consultants, Dennis Eyler from SRF Consulting
11 ..Group, and Brett Weiss from WSB & Associates. And
12 they have looked at the various planning issues,
13 environmental issues, and traffic .issues.
14 I believe Mr. Licht is going to do the report
15 on the report, so to speak. We have before us
16 just for the record, this is the document that was
17 submitted to us as a request from Avalon and this
18 was a document that was also given to us on the
19 report on .the request.
20 Mr. Licht, if you-would be so kind.
21 MR. LICHT: Mr. Chair, Members of the.
22 Commission, members of .the public, I would like to
23 begin by, I guess, giving you some background in
24 terms of my presentation and what is intended and
25 how it will be handled.
28
1 First of all, as the Chair indicated, this is
2 a team approach from the perspective of the City..
3 Not only have three consulting groups participated
4 in this, as was indicated, but also City staff
5 participated to an extensive degree out of
6 Community Development, Finance,. Engineering,. and
7 General Administration. All those individuals were
8 part of the team effort that did the analysis.
9 So this is a consolidated report that I will
10 refer to, if you'll allow me, as the staff report
11 just simply to simplify things as we go through in
12 the detailed document. T believe we refer to it as
13 staff consultant, but I will refer to it in that
14 fashion.
15 The approach also that was taken in the
16 document, and this has been a characteristic
17 approach which has been utilized in the City of
18 Lakeville:, and that is when a Comprehensive .Plan
19 request comes before the advisory bodies as well as
20 the City Council, staff does not take the position
21 onthe request.
22 We do look at technical elements and we do
23 offer opinions on those, but again, in terms of the
24 cumulative decision, weighing all the factors that
25 are involved, that job rests with this group, the
29
1 Environmental Affairs, the Economic Development
2 Committee and, ultimately, the City Council. So we
3 .will not be making a recommendation on the request
4 this evening.
5 The other thing that our report has done and
6 that I will try to do tonight is to utilize the
7 applicant's presentation or their submission as
8 literally the basis of my comments. I will not
9 attempt to duplicate what they have said. Our role
10 in this has been to verify, if you will, what the
11 applicant has said and also to expand upon that
12 where we felt such action was necessary. So we
13 will approach it in t hat fashion..
14 As was noted in both the introduction as well
_15 as Mr. Sellergren's presentation, we are dealing.
16 with a Comprehensive Plan amendment involving, and
17 I emphasize and I will emphasize throughout, a land
18 use change. We are not talking about zoning this
19 evening. We are not talking about site plans.
20 We will reference zoning and we will
21 reference the site plan, but only as a means to
22 evaluate the broader land use issue as best we can.
23 The site in question is located to the .east
24 of I-35, to the north of County Road 60, and
25 basically is south of the line that is indicated
30
1 here. This 12-acre parcel is not part of the
2 consideration this evening (indicating)..
3 The process that is being followed is a
4 two-step process in the broad sense.. There are two
5 jurisdictions that have comment and action on this
6 matter. The first, certainly, is the City and,.
7 again, the detailed process there is through the
8 advisory bodies and then to the City Council.
9 Should the City Council decide that the
10 request is acceptable, it would only be approved on
11 a tentative basis .subject to review by the
12 Metropolitan Council. The Metropolitan Council
13 then has 60 days to look at the request. and it .will
14 be evaluated based upon consistency with the
15 regional plans.
16 There are four main areas that they look at,
17 two of which are questionable in terms of
18 relevance, that being airport and parks. The two
19 that do have relevance are transportation and waste.
20 disposal, sanitary sewer system.. Thos e. are the
21 main areas that they look to comment on. They may
22 comment more generally in terms of other regional
23 considerations, but that will be the focus of their
24 analysis.
25 If they find the document or the request to
31
1 be consistent, they will so advise the City or, if
2 they find it inconsistent, they will so advise the
3 City. Should they find it acceptable, the City
4 then can go ahead and establish the Comprehensive
5 Plan Amendment. But again, it is after the Metro
6 Council looks at it.
7 The request has been reviewed with the public
8 on a number of occasions. I have attended those
9 some of those, certainly not all of those. And
10 through those meetings at least that I attended, as
it well as some questions which have been posed by the
12 public through. letters which have been received and
13 I assume will be entered into the .record later
14 tonight, as well as comments from and questions
15 from City officials, I think there are a number of
16 .areas by background, again, that need to be
17 addressed as part of your consideration. They
18 again have been raised so they are relevant to the
19 matter tonight.
20 The first one is the applicant's right to
21 request the change. Any property owner or
22 individual that has or a corporation that has
23 interest in property in the city has the legal
24 right to come and request the City consider a
25 change in the land use classification that applies
32
1 to their property.
2 So in terms of where the applicant is at,
3 they are being afforded no special privilege. Lt
4 is a privilege that any property owner, again, can
5 have and exercise and the City's responsibility is
6 to consider that request. And again, that's what
7 we're doing this evening.
8 Another item which has come forth quite
9 frequently is the issue of: Why-are you changing
10 the Comprehensive Plan? There have been
11 indications made that the plan was just recently
12 established. It seems to be a breach of trust that
13 we are now going back and changing what was
14 established basically two years ago.
15 First of all, there is a right to request a
16 change, as I indicated, but the Comprehensive Plan
17 of the City of Lakeville has recognized, since the
18 1980 document, that the plan is a guide; it is not
19 fixed in stone.. And as a consequence, there are
20 policies in the Comprehensive Plan. that address
21 when Plan changes are to be considered and give
22 guidance as to how those considerations are to take
23 place.
24 In our report, I won't~go through the
25 policies, but we have cited tho::e in the document
33
1 and if needs be, we can reference that .further, but
2 for at least this purpose, there is a recognition
3 of it.
4 Also, in adopting the current Comprehensive
5 Plan, that being the 1999 Plan, the City Council,
6 as part of the zoning ordinance which implemented
7 the plan, recognized that there were some major
8 changes in approach to the 1999 document. One of
9 those was .the quite specific designation of land
10 use.
11 Where previously we-had addressed the
12 Comprehensive Plan and the land use designations in
13 a more general fashion, we got to a much, much more
14 specific level, partly because of the Metropolitan
15 Council and related legislation, but .more so than
16 has been in the past.
17 What the Council directed and is included as
18 Attachment B of the staff report is the resolution
19 which directs that, at minimum, the Planning
20 Commission is charged with the re-evaluation of the
21 zoning and hence the Comprehensive Plan next year
22 at this time.
23 So what was considered to be the acceptable
24 guide in 1999 was also recognized that it may have
25 to be changed to accommodate whatever the
~34
1 community's desires are, whatever the market may be
2 that the City wants to accommodate, and what the
3 residents may be looking to achieve.
4 .While addressing the Comprehensive Plan and
5 the changes that have taken place, we have also
6 included as part of the staff report a listing of
7 the history of this particular site, as well as the
8 surrounding area, and that is included as
9 Attachment A or, I'm sorry, Attachment C to the.
10 report..
11 And I will not go through that in detail, but
12 again, we cite that change has taken place and
13 that, in general terms, that prior o the City
14 becoming a municipality, prior to becoming
15 incorporated, the community, the township in that
16 case, had thissite. designated for industrial.
17 When the City was incorporated in 1968, a
18 Comprehensive Plan was completed and, at that time.,
19 the property in question was. designated for high
20 density residential along the freeway and 't hen
21 approximately halfway into the site, it was. slated
22 for low density residential development.
23 That particular designation held until 1988
24 when there was a Comprehensive Plan update. And at
25 that time, this property changed again. At that
35
1 point, the entire parcel was made single family and.
2 medium density housing.
3 For an ll-year period, that designation held
4 and we, in 1999, changed the designation from a
5 nonresidential use to Office Campus I'm sorry,.
6 Office Park/Business Campus use, a nonresidential,
7 commercial-type of activity to take place on the
8 entire site.
9 I would also point out that relative to
10 change in the plans and that it does take place on
11 a at least a relatively frequent basis is that
12 if the 1968 plan, which is shown here, would still
13 be in effect, the area west of 1-35, south of
14 County Road 5,. would primarily be commercial in
15 nature, with high density extending the balance of
16 the area to County Road 60 (indicating).
17 So there has been change which takes place..
18 It is a common thing.. And, in fact., .from an
19 overall perspective of the City addressing its
20 needs and its opportunities, has been a positive
21 thing over time. And simply to assume that
22 something, whether it be in 1968 or 1999, is going
23 to be fixed forever I don't think is what anybody
24 wants, at least in terms of a property owner
25 standpoint.
36
1 Another factor, and Mr. Sellergren addressed
2 this briefly and I will hit on it to a minor
3 amount, is transportation history. Certainly,
4 transportation has been a large factor in
5 determining the land-use that the City has
6 designated on the site. I would point out that the
7 south legs of the interchange which are now to be
8 implemented are shown as far back as 1968. It is
9 not a new .idea. It has been planned for that
10 period of time.
11 I would also point out to you that the
12 realignment of Kenrick, north of County Road 60,
13 and connecting with 176th Street is also a concept
14 that dates back that long. So those ideas are a
15 framework that has maintained consistency over a
16 substantial amount of time.
17 The 1995 Comprehensive Plan that was approved
18 by the City basically implemented the road plans
19 which Mr. Sellergren, again, detailed. and I won't
20 go into . Let me reiterate, though, that the
21 planning that has taken place and the improvements
22 that will occur will take place with or without the
23 change in land use or the Avalon development going
24 ahead.
25 Those are a separate issue and, as a
37
1 consequence, I would suggest that they are not a
2 matter germane to this discussion this evening,
3with the exception of whether or not those
4 improvements can accommodate either the existing
5 use or the proposed use.
6 In other words, T don't think that we are
7 here this evening to say the south legs of the ramp
8 are good or bad. At least for this meeting, I
9 think that. is a fixed matter; It's a matter of
10 fact, and I think. we should proceed from that
11 basis. If there is discussion of that, it possibly
12 can take place in a different forum.
13 Another matter that has been. raised on a
14 fairly consistent basis as an issue is: Why this
15 site? There are alternative sites in the City.
16 The staff, because of the questions which were
17 raised on that, has done an evaluation. It is
18 ~ included in your report as Attachment E. The
19 freeway commercial locations, at 70, 50, County Road
20 46 were reviewed, along with the Avalon site and
21 also this area in the Heritage area as part of the
22 central part of .the community.
23 The conclusion reached was that for the
24 development, and. I'm proceeding a little bit ahead
25 by again .using the site plan, but for the
38
1 development which is proposed, the site in question
2 is the most readily available to accommodate the
3 activity. The other sites have either physical
4 restrictions, wetlands, lack of overall size to
5 accommodate the development which is proposed.
6 Now, by making that statement, I am not
7 saying this is an appropriate site; I am simply
8 saying that this site for the development is the
9 best. within the community. Your decision is: Is
10 it acceptable?
11 The question of should the land use change
12 from Office Park/Business Campus to residential
13 or to Commercial; basically, retail service, is
14 founded upon a reference I made earlier in that in
15 1999, the major decision was that this would be a
16 nonresidential site.
17 Again, responding to some of the comments and
18 concerns which had been raised in communication to
19 the City, we are not here this evening. discussing
20 whether or not the site will develop. The site has
21 a committed use, a guided use, and a zoned use and
22- so at this point, we are not looking at the site as
23 a piece of raw land that has no development
24 potential or that the City, for one reason or
25 another, is restricted.
39
1 All of the planning to date has dealt with
2 use of the site and we are assuming that the site
3 will be utilized. So again, in terms of comments
4 which are offered both from myself as well as
5 possibly the public, I think that is a factor that
6 you need to take into account.
7 The evaluation to assist the Commission as
8 well as the Council in reviewing a request, on page
9 5 of the staff report, we have identified what we
10 believe to be six relevant factors that you should
11 frame your decision and its consideration within
12 the context of those items. And if you can, I will
13 and allow me, I will read those.. They're very
14 brief .
15 The first is: "The proposed .amendment. is
16 consistent with the policies and the provisions of
17 the Comprehensive Plan; 2. The proposed use is or
18 will be compatible with present and future land
19 uses of the area; 3. Adequate capacity exists for
20 stormwater drainage, water supply, waste disposal
21 support systems to support the proposed land use;
22 4. Streets and highways have adequate capacity to
23 serve the proposed use; 5. The proposed use will
24 not negatively impact environmentally sensitive
25 areas; and. 6. The proposed use will not overburden
40
1 the City's public service capabilities."
2 It will be those items that I will be
3 addressing as review that has taken place. I
4 would, however, offer a comment that was raised,
5 .and I think a very good one, at the EAC meeting on
6 Tuesday. Those six items need to be viewed in the
7 context of the question before you and that
8 question is the change in use from office to
9 commercial or office to retail. So I think that's
10 a critical factor.
11 The other thing I would offer to you is that.
12 those six criteria need to be viewed in a context
13 of impact, whether it is pro or it is con, from
14 three levels. The first is community,. because this
15 use definitely has an impact on the community.
I6 Secondly, from the area in which it is located. It
17 certainly will have an impact on the area,. pro or
18 con is your conclusion.
19 And the last element is the neighborhood.
20 And when.I reference neighborhood, I am primarily
21 citing Acorn Heights Subdivision, and I will get
22 into that in a little bit later in some detail.
23 But Acorn Heights is the use developed use that
24 directly adjoins the Avalon site and is of a
25 concern.
41
1 Let me go into the land use issues as the
2 first criteria to consider. I would highlight that
3 the Comprehensive Plan, as has been traditionally'
4 the case in Lakeville, relies heavily on policies..
5 Policy planning, rather than a static map, has been
6 the basis for the community's direction throughout
7 its history.. That introduces flexibility and
8 ability to adapt as changes do take place.
9 I would highlight to you that within the
10 policies, on. page 58, the commercial one of the
11 commercial areas dealt with in the community is the
12 freeway corridor. And within the context of the
i 13 freeway corridor, both retail service-type of
14 activities are, in essence, dealt with in the same
15 context as office space. Both, in essence, are
16 recognized as commercial uses within the. community.
17 I want to take that just a little bit further
18 in that the zoning ordinance is the mechanism which
19 interprets and implements the Comprehensive Plan,
20 at least as the primary tool.
21 The ordinance in Chapter 45 sets out the
22 zoning districts and organizes them in terms of
23 different categories. of activities. And from page
24 2 of that chapter, I would note to you the heading:
25 Commercial Districts (indicating). And under
42
1 Commercial Districts, you will see a C-3 zoning
2 classification. That basically and is likely the
3 classification of zoning that would be applied if
4 the property is changed to Commercial designation.
5 Following the general Commercial designation
6 is the Corporate Campus District, which is the
7 zoning that's applied. to the property in question.
8 Several points to make: First Uf all, the zoning
9 ordinance is structured on less intense uses within
10 the districts progressing to more .intense uses, or
11 at least parallel-type of uses.
12 So what is suggested by the structure of the
13 zoning ordinance is that the Corporate Campus
14 District is potentially more intense or at least
15 equal to the general Commercial District. There
16 may be variations on how that intensity is
17 measured, but again, from a conceptual standpoint,
18 that I think is an important distinction.
19 There is another important factor. Mr.
20 Sellergren briefly touched on this but I think it
21 is a pointed item which needs to be highlighted,
22 and that is: If the City intended the site, the
23 Avalon site, to be a low intensity use, a low
24 intensity. office use, it had the opportunity to
25 designate and interpret its Comprehensive.Plan by
43
1 designating it Office/Residential use.
2 Now, what has, in fact, taken place, and
3 again, this is what Mr. Sellergren referenced, is
4 the site and this is the zoning map
5 (indicating). The site was zoned Corporate Campus.
6 Simultaneously, in the area, there were other
7 properties which were indicated for that type of
8 activity, office activity. At the intersection of
9 County Roads 50 and 60, and in fact one has just
10 recently developed, that area was also designated-
11 for office use.
12 However, it was a less intensive use and it
13 is, as a consequence, designated O/R. So what I'm
14 again directing you to is the intensity of
15 activity, which is implied on the site by the .land
16 use designation as well as the zoning, which is
17 there (indicating).
18 Mr. Sellergren did give you, again, a rundown.
19 of uses. I will simply .generally say that the
20 primary use allowed by zoning of the and use that
21 is guided for the property today is office, but
22 office is certainly not the exclusive activity.
23 Besides office, the site, as zoned Corporate
24 Campus, can. be 15 percent retail service-type of
25 activities, blending back, if you will, tothe
44
1 general. Commercial.
2 The site, though, has also the potential of
3 going in the other direction, and that is toward
4 industrial-because the Corporate Campus District
5 also allows manufacturing as well as warehousing.
6 So, again, from an intensity standpoint that I
7 referenced before, there is an intensity of
8 activity that is certainly implied by those uses.
9 The uses that are allowed under the C-3, or
10 General Commercial, are basically retail and
11 service-type of operations which I think everybody
12 is generally familiar with. So from --.that I
13 think is an important perspective of the uses or
14 activities as allowed by_zoning.
15 Now, the other thingthat the staff report
16 has done: It has attempted to compare the
17 potential. development of the site as it's currently
18 guided with what is potential under _t he proposed
19 1anduse change.
20 We have utilized the applicant's'site plan as
21 a basis for that measurement. We have also
22 utilized, at least to some degree, the applicant's
23 calculations for what is potential. Wehave gone..
24 through and we have verified what we believe to be
25 an acceptable parameter. That is, for retail and
45
1 service, the general commercial use, there would be
2 approximately 550,000 square feet of development.
3 One of the factors to take into consideration
4 there is that while there is some office
5 incorporated, at least in their proposal, and there
6 is potential office under the C-3 zoning, the
7 majority of site, if it is, in fact, retail, will
8 be single .story, although maybe heighth limitations
9 approached, which is 35 feet, but basically the use
10 is confined to the .first floor level, with some
11 recognized second floor level.
12 What the potential of the site is as
13 currently guided and as zoned is 2 million square
14 feet of office space. Now, again, referencing the
15 meeting which was held Tuesday evening with the
16 Economic or, I'm sorry, the Environmental
17 Affairs Committee, a member of the public did
18 question that. number and I think that's a
19 legitimate item to question because we are dealing
20 with almost a four times increase in use factor.
21 One of the things that I would raise,. and
22 this is somewhat facetious, I guess, but the
23 reference was made that the site in question with 2
24 million square feet parallels .the IDS building in
25 downtown Minneapolis, which I believe the quote was
46
1 it was 1.9 million. I don't think that comparison
2 is really fair.
3 At about 2 acres, in terms of size that the
4 IDS building sits on, that's a million square feet
5 per acre, and I don't think we are dealing,.
6 certainly, with those numbers.
7 What you see in the hash mark the IDS and
8 its 2 acres is right here (indicating). What you
9 see in the hash mark is the 96 acres that would be
10 incorporated in a parallel measure. And again, at
11 a million square feet per acre, we'd have 900 96
12 million square. feet of office space in .there.
13 That's not realistic, certainly, for Lakeville. We
14 wouldn't propose to look at than.
15 What is relevant for Lake~rille is other space
16 that does exist within the suburban setting. One
17 of those is that we have cited as an example is
18 the Centennial Lakes office/commercial development
• 19 in Edina, just north of 494 and off of France.
20 That site~is a 29-acre site. It is very intensely
21 developed.. It has primarily office buildings,. with.
22 some, again, retail service.
23 If that site were applied in its density to
24 the site in question, the Avalon site, we would
25 have 2.7 million square feet of office space. Now,
47
1 one of the things, again, that's referenced or that
2 could be looked at is to say that the Centennial
3 Lakes situation is a multi-story, parking ramp-type
4 of complex. The point being is that those options
5 do exist here in Lakeville: That you can exceed
6 building height by conditional use permit. .You
7 have increased setback requirements.
8 But again, given the nature of this request
9 or the 30 percent requirement of open space in the
10 Corporate Campus District, it is very conceivable
11 to see that you would have multi-story office
12 buildings taking place on the site. Again, this is
13 a 2.7 million parallel to the Avalon site.
14 Probably more realistic is-what, in fact, is
15 in the area and, in fact, the City. The Northwest
16Airlines Credit building in Apple Valley, if that
17 development were translated in terms of intensity
18 of activity to the Avalon site, .you would have 1.6
19 million square feet of space..
20 Taking it one step closer, if you will, to
21 Lakeville, and that is the very positive situation
22 of the Heat-N-Glo corporate headquarters which. are
23 located in the Fairfield Business Campus. That
24 facility has 30 percent open space in its entire
25 development. It is .zoned Corporate Campus, and
48
1 that. development, again, translated to the entire
2 Avalon site, would produce 1.7 million square feet
3 of office space.
4 So basically, what our calculations did was
5 try to take a blend. We felt Centennial Lakes or
6 developments like that were too intense, but
7 simultaneously, there is the potential, and working
8 in the 2 million figure was not out of line
9 relative to the potential that it could produce.
10 So arguably, we believe that to be an
11 acceptable basis of the evaluation and it will. be
12 addressed accordingly.
13 The Comprehensive Plan, city-wide, basically
14 looks'to basically looks to create a community
15 of what is termed sustainable development. And
16 that is, in essence, a balance of
17 residential/commercial/industrial activity. I
18 don't think there's any question that the proposal
19 to have this type of use in the City works toward
20 that objective. Again and so from a general
21 comprehensive planning standpoint, there is nothing
22 wrong with the commercial use, but the question to
23 you: Is this the specific location in which it
24 should belocated?
25 And that brings us to the. issue of
49
1 compatibility. And again, Mr. Sellergren
2 identified that to a significant degree. I won't
3 duplicate what he said and I would reference to
4 you, for specifics, page 7 of our report which
5 identified the surrounding uses (indicating).
6 From a planning standpoint, I
7 professional/technical way to view it is that, in
8 essence, the site is surrounded on three sides by
9 what we refer to as urban barriers, that they are
10 barriers that create changes in land use because of
11 their basic impact, their size, what have you. The
12 three barriers on this site are I-35, County Road
13 60, .and the CP Rail.
14 Where there is direct relationship, again, is
15 the Acorn Heights.Subdivision. So from the
16 compatibility standpoint, generally immediately,
17 and I'm again addressing immediate because there
18 are certainly visual impacts or traffic impacts.
19 that I'll get into, or environmental impacts that.
20 go broader. But from a direct-site impact in terms
21 of directly adjacent uses,. on three sides, there
22 are not impacts of direct consequence.
23 I would also note that the applicant has
24 stressed that along the south side, along County
25 Road 60, that there would be a buffer there and
50
1 that would be maintained so that there is not
2 visual contact either from driving or .from
3 development to the south.
4 Also, due to wetland slopes,. whatever, there
5 is buffering along the north.. I, again, will get
6 into that later, and at least there .have been
7 attempts to establish compatibility with the
8 immediately adjoining property. .Again, you will
9 have to be the judge of whether that's acceptable..
10 I would point out that in terms of the use
11 proposed, the footprint of the building we would
12 anticipate to be the. same regardless of whether it
13 was office or whether it's retail.
14 We would also assume that the parking is
15 similar, at least to what is required. Under the
16 ordinance, there has to be five spaces per thousand
17 square feet of either office or retail. So from
18 the standard of measurement, they equal each other.
19 The question is how much intensity do you create.
20 with the potential of office.
21 Now, there certainly are use characteristics.
22 which differ and vary between the two. Time of
23 operation is one of those. That is a
24 consideration. Signing is a consideration. But at
25 this level, those are, other than in a general...
51
l sense, very difficult to measure. Again, I think
2 you should consider them, but in terms of creating
3 compatibility with those items, specific items,
4 that typically is at a site plan level that we deal
5 with that.
6 The transportation that applies to the site
7 is an issue, certainly, that is a primary concern,"
8 voiced by the public, voiced by City officials, and
9 certainly, from a technical-.standpoint, it is also
10 a major, major concern.
it On .page 8 of our report., we begin to addres
12 that, SRF and Dennis Eyler is the individual from
13 the team that was responsible for that. The effort
14 began by evaluating the numbers supplied by
15 Benshoof & Associates, the applicant's engineer,
16 and an update of the regional transportation model.
17 The conclusion reached by the technical
18 experts on this is that the interchange capacities
19 are adequate; that it can accommodate development,
20 either as an office or as a commercial use. Now,
21 that is also within the context that one must
22 recognize that there is phased improvements going
23 on.
24 In the year 2002, next year, the south legs.
25 of the ramp on I-35 will be undertaken and
52
1 completed. In 2005, the bridge spanning County
2 Road 60 will be widened so that it it is
3 currently an obstruction to traffic today in the
4 capacity. That will be widened, as well as the
5 street west of the interchange to the City border
6 will be addressed in terms of capacity, increased
7 lanes, turning movements, that type of thing.
8 So from a perspective, again, of capacity,
9 what would be imposed as part of this, whether it
10 again is office or retail--on the retail,. the
11 applicant has suggested this--is that the
12 development would have to be phased and would have
13 to be phased with the capacity of the street
14 .improvements.
15 Quite honestly, if I were a retailer, that's
16 a smart move. There's no sense in creating more
17 office or more retail space than you can get
18 people to. So it's a logical approachfrom both
19 the City as well. as the applicant's standpoint.
20 The analysis conducted indicated that there
21 are several improvements that would, however,. have
22 to take place on County Road. 60 at the Kenrck
23 realigned intersection, and those are an increased
24 second left lane going south onto County Road 60
25 and another second. left-turn lane eastbound on 60
53
1 going into Kenrick, but those are the extent of it
2 and those. can be accommodated (indicating). '
3 The other point made in terms of traffic, and
4 I reference .the extension of Kenrick and its
5 connection eventually to 176th and 175th, this
6 project does move in that direction and implements
7 a portion of that alignment.
8 The overall conclusion reached on the part of
9 the. transportation consultant, the City's
10 transportation consultant, was that office use is,
11 in fact, a better-- or, I'm sorry, that commercial
12 use is a better fit than is the office use. And
13 there were two rea-sons cited.
14 One, and again, Mr._Sellergren hit the point:
15 That the peak hours of office of office coincide
16 with the peak hours of the normal evening and
17 morning commute. The peak hours. of retail are in
18 the afternoon but not in the morning, so you
19 eliminate that issue, and there is .also a peak hour.
20 for retail on Saturday, late Saturday morning,
21 early Saturday afternoon, which when the system
22 capacity is available, certainly, to handle it. So
23 from that perspective, there is a better fit.
24 Also, from a broader perspective of the
25 region as well as the community as a whole, what
'
54
1 .one might term smart growth, having a facility in
2 the community that attracts the trips that
3 otherwise would go to Apple Valley or Burnsville
4 reduces the number of trips on the regional system.
5 There are shorter trips and there are fewer trips..
6 So that, again, is a positive.
7 Where one would assume that if it were an
8 office use, you would be pulling people from
9 certainly from Lakeville, but a good majority
10 outside, so you would be .burdening the regional
11 system to a little bit greater extent..
12 Environmental is the next topic that we need
13 to address. If I can use the concept plan
14 (indicating). First, again, the assumption is that
15 we're dealing with similar footprints of an office
16 use versus a retail service use. Under that
17 assumption, what you have occurring in either case
18 is that the site will be mass graded. That. has to ,
19 be done, again, to accommodate development of the
20 intensity which is currently recognized by the
21 Comprehensive Plan.
22 As it relates to slopes, most people are, I
23 think, fully aware that the site is highly rolling
24 and varies in topography. That will certainly be
25 affected on a vast majority of it, but I would
55
1 highlight that at least in terms of concept plan,
2 what the applicant. has proposed is that this is not
3 a pancake, that these various buildings are at
4 different elevations and that they will utilize the
5 property and the topography that is there, at least
6 to some degree.
7 In terms of woodlands, the major impact is in
8 the. southwest corner. Again, a site inspection
9 would suggest to you that there is intense wood
10 hardwood trees there. Irrespective of the
11 development to take place, those will be impacted
12 and be removed.
13 We would assume what would take place and
14 hopefully supplemented, if this goes forth, is that
15 the periphery of the site would be intensified, as
16 well as the site itself, with plantings, and
17 although a site plan detail, we would go further to
18 suggest that potentially some landscaping, planting
19 trees, in the. middle of the vast parking lots to
20 reduce their impact. But that,. again, is a site
21 .planning issue.
22 So what has been concluded by the engineering
23 consultant, WSB, is that, in essence, the impact of
24 both uses, office or retail, is the same.
25 Wetlands: Again, Mr. Sellergren hit on that
56
1 subject so I'm not going to go into great detail.
2 Suffice it to say, that there are 3.7 acres of
3 wetlands being impacted. In this area, there is
4 slightly less than 1 acre due to building; in this
5 area, the 2.8 acres are being impacted due to the
6 street alignment.
7 The street alignments that exist were
8 determined not by the applicant but by the City and
9 the County, and they align with Orchard as well as
10 the realignment of Kenrick, so they are logical
11 extensions. .The mitigation of those wetlands that
12 are impacted will take. place on the site or
13 otherwise through the City's wetland bank. A site
14 planning detail, but again, a concern.
15 Open space was 'also referenced and what we
16 have calculated. is that given the open space that
17 exists on the north andthe :east, as well as
18 internally to the. site; primarily, the ponding
19 areas, equals approximately 30 to 31 acres or in
20 excess of 30 percent of the site. That is relevant
21 in a comparison to take place because of the
22 reference'that the Corporate Campus stipulates that
23 there must be 30 percent open space on the
24 property.
25 The applicant, in essence, has proposed to
57
1 meet or exceed that. And what the staff is
2 suggesting is that to carry that, in fact, to a
3 realistic or a reality situation is that as part of
4 the amendment and the text that would be included
5 is that the periphery of the site be protected.
6 through conservation easement or dedication to the
7 City. The ponding areas I would note for you are
8 ~ already, as a matter of City policy, will be given
9 to the. City to control and regulate. So those
10 areas will be protected.
11 Given that, there are 30 acres that will be
12 protected on the site under this development
13 proposal or, if it's included as part of the Comp
14 Plan, any development that is brought forth. So
15 from that standpoint, that tends to equate, again,-
16 to both .uses, that there. is 30 percent of open
17 space being maintained.
18 Infrastructure is the next topic. WSB,
19 again, reviewed this. The site is within the
20 current MUSA. It, therefore, fulfills, either as
21 an office or retail use, a very basic objective of
22 infill development.
23 And one of the items to be addressed there is
24 the water system,. and that we can dispense with
25 quite quickly. There is adequate water supply.
58
1 There are water pipes within the area that can be
2 :extended as a matter of basic development phasing,
3 so that is not a problem.
4 Wastewater is another issue. The
5 Comprehensive Sanitary Sewer Plan in 1996 assumed
6 that the site because the plan at that time
7 called for it, .assumed that the. site would be
8 single family and medium density residential
9 development.
10 That type.. of residential development on this
11 96 acres would generate 100,000 gallons per day of
12 .sanitary sewer discharge. .Under the office
13 proposal, and in the office proposal, we have used
14 a range of basically l.4 to 2 million. That would
15 generate between 190,000 gallons per day to 250,000
16 gallons per day. So there is a substantial
17 increase over what the Comprehensive Sanitary Sewer
18 Plan called for.
19 As retail use, the site and basically, as
20 proposed, the 550,000 square feet, the site would
21 generate 95,000 gallons per day of sewer. discharge.
22 What that relates again to, in terms of the
23 comparison, is that the proposed use relates to the
24 level of intensity or the level of discharge
25 proposed by the.Comprehensive Sewer Plan. It is
59
1 far less than what would occur on the site if it
2 were office, even a conservative office estimate.
3 There is also adequate infrastructure to deal with
4 that.
5 Stormwater: In this area, we have, with our
6 apology, a correction to make, and this was pointed
7 out, again, by the public at the meeting on Tuesday
8 evening (indicating). We indicated, in the report,
9 that the entire site was in the Lake Marion
10 Subwatershed District part. of the Vermillion
11 subwatershed basin. That was incorrect... There is
12 a portion of the site which does, in fact, flow
13 northward into the Minnesota river basin, drainage
14 basin, through certainly not direct. Lt goes
15 into Crystal Lake or Orchard on its way and it is
16 treated, but, in essence, he flow is in a
17 different direction.
18 In the very northeast corner of the site, and
19 the site is bound here you can see in red, there is
20 2.7 acres of land that ..discharges into that
21 Minnesota river basin (indicating).
22 The Comprehensive Sewer Plan does, in fact,
23 suggest that this area to the south of that would
24 also. But the City engineer, upon looking at that ,
25 concluded that this would actually flow to the east
60
1 and then subsequently to the south. So we are
2 dealing with 2.7 acres,•and that is the area to be
3 reserved.
4 Again, Mr. Sellergren identified that the
5 majority of the site goes to the backwater of Lake
6 Marion. And in-the 1995 Comprehensive Stormwater
7 Management Plan, there was an impervious surface
8 calculation of 35 to 45 percent taking place on the
9 Avalon site. .That, again, is because of the single
10 family, medium density housing.
11 One can expect that if this property develops
12 as currently guided as office or under .the
13 proposal, that you would have 60 to 65 percent
14 impervious surface. That again recognizes the open
15 space being reserved.
16 But in any case, what is ~f importance there
17 is that the site plan that-was .prepared has
18 indicated that. more storage facility for volume and
19 rate control can, in fact, take place on the site
20 than was anticipated.
21 Also, to the west of I-35, in excess of what
22 was anticipated by the Comprehensive Stormwater
23 Management Plan, there is excess storage over there
24 that was not. anticipated. That, combined .with
25 low-impact development, which is a techniques
61
1 which can be imposed as part of the subdivision and
2 zoning process, can reduce the site to what the
3 engineers consider an acceptable level per City
4 standards, so from a volume and rate perspective.
5 Also from a City or at least in
6 perspective of the Comprehensive Plan, the issue of
7 water quality is a concern. That's very difficult
8 to judge other than to say the City has extremely
9 high standards and those would be imposed upon any
10 development that takes place...
11 The conclusion is that the uses would be the
12 same. And the other factor to take into account is
13 that there would be an EAW prepared for this
14 project if it proceeds. An EAW is'not relevant at
15 this time because an EAW is site specific, but
16 and plan specific. But if it proceeds, there
17 certainly is the basis to address all of the
18 concerns that are environmental in nature, and
19 also, it gives the opportunity for not only the
20 City of Lakeville but all the jurisdictions that
21 have some :relevance there to evaluate the project..
22 The last area I will cover is economic
23 development and finance. The City has a Strategic
24 Plan for economic development along with the
25 Comprehensive Plan. One of the major objectives of
62
1 that document is to create a more positive fiscal
2 balance within the community; in other words,.
3 increase the income levels as contrasted to the
4 cosh levels of service.
5 First of all, either project or, I'm
6 sorry, either use would accomplish that. I would
7 also like to go and make known for the record,
8 because the issue has been raised, is that there is
9 no tax increment on this project. There is no City
10 subsidy that has been requested or been offered, so
11 it is a taxpaying development at the full rate.
12 The property tax generated would be
13 approximately 3.8 million per year. 2.6 million of
14 that would go t o the School District, 820,000 to
15 the County, 670,000 to the City, and 76,000 to
16 other jurisdictions.
17 Where this use or, in fact, the office use
18 has relevance and the City has need for the type of
19 commercial use is that the City currently has only
20 10 percent of its land in
21 commercial/industrial/property tax classifications.
22 That places the City sixth in Dakota County alone
23 in terms of its percent of land in a high tax
24 generation. And, of course, it is the
25 commercial/industrial that do tend to carry the-
.
63
1 major activities.
2 As a reference, within Lakeville School
3 District 194, a $175,000 home would experience a
4 $101-per-year reduction if the development would
5 proceed. Now, that may not be substantial in some
6 people's estimation, but when that's applied to the
7 number of houses in Lakeville, that is fairly
_8 substantial. And, of course, one use is only one
9 contributor to that.
10 On the cost side of the ledger, commercial or
11 office use requires typically only public safety
12 and infrastructure improvements.. It does not
13 burden the school, the park and rec, or general
14 government.
15 The Tast .item I would address is the type of
16 retail.. There is a community survey that was done
17 in 1999 that suggested 96 percent of this
18 community, its residents, shop outside of the city.
19 One of the elements of the Strategic Economic
20 Development Plan is to .attract that into the
21 community. Again, that is smart growth. It
22 creates sustainable development.
23 Of issue, also as part of discussions both
24 with residents as well as public officials, is the
25 type of retail we are. dealing with. This is what
64
1 is commonly referred to as the big box. There is
2 generally, not certainly only in Lakeville but
3 throughout. the metro area and region, concern that
4 big box is no t. the type of retail one wants in a
5 community.
6 The fact of reality is that it is the big box
7 that does create the convenience in terms of goods
8 and services being provided. The big .box is the
9 use that will attract the smaller enterprise and it
10 is the big box that will bring the people here that
11 also go to the small enterprise and make the small
12 enterprise viable.
13 We have evident examples in terms of where
14 big boxes do exist and don't. Recently, Maple
15 Grove, Woodbury added big boxes. Their commercial
16 growth has been astounding, to say the least.
17 - Prior to that, they did not go anywhere.
18 Richfield is another close example of where
19 the big box has started to introduce more type of
20 regional facilities. And finally, you have your
21 own community. The. Lakeville Commons, the Heritage
22 area has, in fact, been very, very slow to
23 development. The downtown, over the period of
24 years, has been very slow and difficult in terms of
25 attracting business. And one of the factors is
65
1 there is not a big draw.
2 So if you are going to achieve economic
3 development goals, big box in one fashion or
4 another, again, depending on where it goes., is a
5 fact of life and I think there are statistics to
6 back that up.
7 If I can conclude by saying we will not make
8 a recommendation, as I stated earlier. We are
9 the decision on whether it is acceptable is yours,
10 not mine.
11 I would conclude by saying. that if you do
12 proceed with it, we are suggesting three
13 stipulations be added. The first is that, in fact,
14 the open space along the periphery of the site be
15 dedicated to the City or protected through a
16 conservation easement.. That wording is to go, we
17 propose, in the specific amendment that would be
18 considered by the Metro Council as well as the
19 Council.
20 As advisory only, and you don't have to
21 include this--there was some confusion at the EAC
22 the other evening--but only as notice to the
23 community, the property owners, the advisory
24 bodies, as well as the City Council, we are also
25 suggesting two other stipulations be added.
66
1 And those are: The 12 acres' area to the
2 immediate north of the Avalon site--that's that 12
3 acres I pointed to you before between Acorn Heights
4 and the CP Railroad--should retain a present Office
5 Park/Business Campus use, Corporate Campus zoning
6 designation for the time being.
7 As more information becomes available on this
8 area's natural features and. the alignment of
9 Kenrick is resolved, the City should review what,
10 if any, Land Use Plan changes may be appropriate.
11 In this regard, consideration should be given
12 to extending the residential land use which
13 encompasses the Acorn Heights neighborhood easterly
14 to the new Kenrick. What we're saying is that
15 alignment will take place in this area,. and. we
16 don't know where it is (indicating).
17 There is likely to be a space created between
18 the existing residentially-designated area and that
19 right-of-way. We don't want to create an
20 incompatible use there and so what we're. saying is
21 the City may, at a future point, want to consider
22 residential on that. But again, no action is
23 proposed now. .
24 The second consideration is proposed that
25 the second nonbinding, nonpart of the specific
67
1 Comprehensive Plan Amendment is that the area to
2 the north of Acorn Heights and south-southwest of
3 the CP Raul line, this area here (indicating),
4 should continue to be guided as commercial. Should
5 the City should, however, maintain flexibility
6 to consider a possible Office Park/Business Campus
7 use designation, Corporate Campus zoning £or this
8 property should market demand demonstrate needs for
9 such use and area size.
10 All we're saying is that this is an isolated
11 area; it's more restricted. If there is the demand
12 for office that is not accommodated in other parts,
13 you may want to consider that as part of your
14 future deliberations. Thank you.
15 CHALR DROTNING: Thank you, Mr. Licht.
16 It's amazing that we had planned because
17 I'm twitchy and I'm good for about an hour and a
18 half and we had scheduled a break for 7:30 and Mr.
19 Licht and the presenters took up all that time.
20 We're going to take a 10-minute break and
21 then we will open the. public hearing and at that
22 time, we will receive letters and various other
23 information that we have in front of it, and then
24 we will open it up for public comment, and then we
25 will review the policies and procedures and ground
68
1 rules for the Planning Commission with all of you
2 at that time. Take a break and save your seats.
3 (A recess was taken.)
4 CHAIR DROTNING: We have a couple
5 business issues we need to take care of. We need
6 to receive. into .the record the minutes from the
7 Environmental Affairs Committee, correspondence,.
8 both e-mail, by letter, and we have received in our
9 packets
10 And it got dark real quick. They told me to
11 give them a minute in the video room and maybe I
12 didn't.
13 The correspondence from residents and.
14 citizens. that .was both in the local newspapers. and
15 directed as City .Hall. Several of us have also
16 received correspondence at home. And I checked the
17 packet and we have the correspondence. The
18 Commissioners have checked with me.
19 The other thing we have .before us are the
20 recommendations from the. '92 Strategic Growth Task
21 Force, the recommendations from the '98 Strategic
22 Growth Task Force, and the Executive Summary and
23 Survey done by Decision Resources.
24 So if I could have a motion to enter those
25 into the permanent record..
69
1 COMMISSIONER WULFF: So moved.
2 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Second.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Roll call.
4 SECRETARY BREVIG: Wulff?
5 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Aye.
6 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
7 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Aye.
8 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
9 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Aye.
10 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
11 COMMISSIONER KOT: Aye.
12 SECRETARY .BREVIG: Drotning?
13 CHAIR DROTNING: Aye.
14 SECRETARY BREVIG: Comer?
15 COMMISSIONER COMER: Aye..
16 SECRETARY BREVIG: Detjen?
17 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: Aye,
18 (Whereupon, Motion 01.14 was passed.)
19 CHAIR DROTNING: I'd like to thank all. of
20 you for being here. We're very well aware that
21 there's a lot of interest in this .proposal.
22 There's people that will be in favor of it, there's
23 people that will not be in favor of it, and there
24 will be people that don't care. We're happy to
25 have all of you here.
~o
1 We would like to ask that if you are with a
2 group that have similar feelings, that much like
3 the consultant did, they had one representative
4 speak for them as far as the report goes; and if
5 you have similar vievrs and you could have one
6 person share those comments with us, we'd very much
7 appreciate it.
8 At, this point. in time, I would prefer not to
9 have to inflict a time limit on individual
10 presentations. However, it's very important that
11 you recognize that there are issues that are
12 pertinent to the proposal that's in front of us and
13 there are agenda issues that are not.
14 Right up front, the as Mr. Licht stated,
15 there are various components of this .plan that are
16 not before us. .Quite frankly,. the site plan:
17 where are the berms going to be, where are the
18 trees going to be, and where are .the buildings
19 going to be? In fact, that is not before us
20 .tonight; it's the .concept of the use that is before
21 us.
22 So while and we typically do not. stand as
23 the Architectural Committee, but those are not.
24 things that we would be addressing tonight because
25 at this. point in time, they're not valid. This is
71
1 a look to see if the zoning or, excuse me, the
2 Comprehensive Plan requests that they are making is
3 appropriate.
4 We are very well aware that there will be
5 concerns about traffic and the land use issue. And
6 we're interested in hearing we've gotten an
7 awful lot of information from the consultant and
8 we'd like to also hear from the general public.
9 So to use my normal line, this is a public
10 hearing. If there's anybody in the audience that
11 would like to come forward and comment regarding
12 this proposal, please .come forward, sign in on the
13 register with your name and address, state your
14 name and address, and I would once again ask that
15 you keep your comments brief, direct to the point,
16 and pertinent to the proposal in front of us.
17 If we find that we're getting off track, I
18 will interject and would have to at some point. in
19 time enforce some kind of a time limit. Whether it
20 be three minutes or five minutes, I want it to be
21 reasonable. I would certainly like everybody that
22 has something to share be able to come forward.
23 The public hearing is open and has been open.
24 Any comments, questions,. or concerns from the
25 audience?
• 72
1 While you're coming up, sir, I would also
2 like to thank the audience for their consideration
3 during the past presentation by the developer and
4 the consultants.
5 I would also mention, while he's signing in,
6 that we have. Mr. Ron Mullenbach, who's one of our
7 staff people who's been involved in this process,
8 is taking notes as far as the comments that are
9 made. Comments should be directed to the
10 Committee. Once we have .received all the comments
11 from the public, then we will close the public
12 hearing and the Committee will discuss the
13 information that we've received tonight.
14 MR. LEE WILLNER: Good evening. My name
15 is Lee and I'm a resident of Lakeville.
16 150,000 square foot big box store will
17 attract 5,000 to 10,000 shoppers a day. If 90
18 percent drive, as is likely, then a big box store
19 can attract 2700 to 5600 auto trips a day, 1 to 2
20 million auto trips per .year. Assuming an average
21 round trip distance of 8 miles, this means an
22 additional 8 to 16 million vehicle miles of travel
23 per year.
24 Because the proposed super center is located
25 on 35, our community faces the danger of becoming
73
1 an illegal truck depot. This would mean diesel
2 smoke, pollution, road damage, and trash.. Super
3 centers generate a lot of traffic. With this area
4 being as congested as it is, opening ,it up and
5 making the lanes making bigger lanes is going to
6 generate up to 200 to 210 multi-unit multi-axle
7 trucks a week.
8 In thus area, we don't need this. The talk
9 about the fact that it is not going to be an impact
10 on drive time in the morning is wrong. The grocery
it store is going to run 24 hours a day, 7 days a
12 week; trucks will deliver in the morning, early
13 morning, and throughout the day.
14 I would request that you not rezone this area
15 for retail. .Our area doesn't need this. The
16 people didn't move out here for large retail
17 complexes. I want retail here and I want it to fit
18 into our community. Please don't rezone. It just
19 doesn't fit. Thank .you. very much.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: Thant: you.
21 (Applause.)
22 CHAIR DROTNING: This is not a referendum
23 or a voting or an applause-type thing from the
24 audience and I would very much appreciate, whethe r
25 you agree or disagree with the respondent, if you
74
1 would hold your applause. It's not a popularity
2 contest.
3 MR. STEVE STOKES: Is there any way that
4 I can get this exposed?
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Yeah. Lay it right
6 MR. STEVE. STOKES: Well, then you'll see
7 all my notes.
8 CHAIR DROTNING: Just lay it right in
9 front of you and they'll zoom in on it.
10 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: It's. upside-down.
11 COMMISSIONER WULFF: The cameras .don't
12 catch the little slanted area there so if you put
13 your notes on the slanted area where you just.
14 signed in, then you read them and everybody else
15 doesn't but they see your map. Okay?
16 MR. STEVE STOKES: My name is Steve
17 Stokes. And I'll try to be brief but I had to take
18 everything that was kind of handwritten.
19 The first thing that I wanted to point out is
20 when I first initially heard about the Target, I
21 felt like everyone else did: Oh, that'll be
22 convenient. Then I was kind of forced to go to
23 some of the expositions where they were explaining
24 things and, of course, I became very alarmed.
25 When I was in college, they told us I took
75
1 a class called Logic. And in the Logic, they told
2 you if you have a faulty premise, then you always
3 came to a faulty conclusion.
4 When I went through the Comprehensive Plan
5 and I've written enough proposals in my life to
6 know that you should be relatively skeptical when
7 you read something because, when you read it, you
8 recognize that that person has a particular point
9 of view that they want to get across and they're
10 going to .put it across in the best light. .And I
11 just would like to touch base on a couple of those.
12 One is they. were asked to provide comparable
13 data. Of course, that didn't happen. That it's a
14 550,000-square-£oot. All. of their comparisons were
15 to a 2-million-square-foot location. He showed a
16 map up there. Unfortunately, that map was somewhat
17 suspicious because 2 million square feet spread out
18 would actually encompass that total area; whereas,
19 the IDS is built straight upwards.
20 The other thing that it doesn't. do is it
21 doesn't address it talks about the positive
22 things but it does not talk specifically about the
23 offsets that are in this in their document. In
24 other words, they say this is gaming to generate
25 $3-plus million to the City but it doesn't talk
76
1 about here's the additional costs that you're going
2 to have to incur for increased fire, increased
3 police. It doesn't address any of those things:
4 The other thing that I noted in there is that
5 they had the value of the total project at $90
6 million. $90 million per that's $167 a square
7 foot. Do .you realize that is triple the downtown
8 space? You can go to downtown Minneapolis, that's
9 about triple the square foot space. So $160 a
10 square foot just seems a trifle off.
11 The numbers that they used for road use
12 and the reason that I became aware of this is, of
13 course, we had a couple of girls who were killed.
14 not too far from our house and I went to one of the
15 meetings and they were talking about the
16 estimations of road use.
17 And MNDOT kind of missed the boat on that one
18 where they said that by this time, we were going to
19 have 2,000 cars per day going down 185th when they
20 put 185th all the way through tU Prior Lake and
21 they .were only off about 12,000 cars per day.
22 They're doing about 14,-000 cars a day. But
23 nonetheless, that's the number that they refer to
24 in this document.
25 The other is: When they talk about
77
1 expansion, I think it's very. important to note,
2 because I do I work with I'm not a lawyer but.
3 I play one on TV. That's a joke. Is that you
4 allow this in here, you will have no legal right to
5 prevent someone else from coming in and saying,
6 "You already zoned this for a particular
7 organization. We're Wal-Mart and we want to go
8 across the street." You will not be able to
9 prevent it; and if you do, you'll set yourself up,
10 I would guess, for a lawsuit to do that.
11 The impact --the environmental impact which
12 you made note of, this is somewhere between I
13 didn't get out there with a tape measure, but
14 you're somewhere between a thousand and 2000 feet
15 'from the best body of water in Dakota County, one
16 that's used quite frequently, and they don't.
17 address they talk about rainwater,. but they
18 don't talk about somebody who goes and buys a quart.
19 of oil at Target, puts it into his car, which we've
20 all seen the Kendall or some type of motor oil, and
21 they leave it out in the parking lot and of course
22 that washes down into the groundwater.
23 And they say we've got rolling hills .and
24 whatnot, but they do acknowledge that this
25 pollution now, they only talk about stormwater
78
1 as if it's. some kind of generic thing, but it's.
2 not. That this pollution is going to get into some
3 .every .environmentally-sensitive areas, and they're
4 very close.
5 The --.you know, the other item I would like
6 to address is potential flooding. One of the
7 things that they make reference to in that.. document
8 is that that this is an abnormally. heavy snow.
9 .year. This would be abnormal.. And I went out. to
10 the National Weather .Service, and you can go out
11 and look it up yourself, but the average snowfall
12 in our area is 49.7 inches. .We've had. about 54
13 inches, I believe, this year.
14 But that can go up to over a hundred inches,
15 and we've actually seen it go over 70 inches. about
16 I think it's about seven times in the last 20
17 years. And what they're saying is this is just a
18 normal winter. So we could actually have flooding
19 from those impervious surfaces. We don't know
20 that.
21 The next point is the safety of the schools.
22 We do have five schools in this immediate area. I
23 mean, there's already been five deaths in the last,
24 what, 12-14 months down that road. I think if we
25 add another 30,000 cars going through there, that
79
1 statistically, we would see, you know, an increase
2 in deaths, and I don't think anyone wants that on
3 their conscience, that it will happen.. I mean, I
4 know that no one is pro-growth but we .want to be
5 pro-growth otherwise.
6 And then the. last point: .Because I did tell
7 you that.I did --'I do work. on proposals, I was
8 going to say when you look at this document and
9 it took me a second before I looked at it, but look
10 at this thing... What's wrong with this? Have you
11 eve r. seen light tan asphalt?
12 You know why they. do that? They do that to
13 make it sesm really nice, but the fact is that's
14 not what it's going to look like.. This is all
15 going to be black and the trees aren't going to be
16 evenly .spaced. This is going to be completely
17 redone and is going to change this city forever. T
18 mean, the people that are here are deeply concerned
19 about that and I'd ask you to vote. no. Thank you.
2~ ~APPlause.)
21 CHAIR DROTNING: I meant it about the
22 applause and I also mean, and maybe I didn't make
23 myself clear, there are issues that. are site plan
24 issues that are covered under Building Code and
25 City Code. And I explained it before and I'll
80
1 explain it again. Site plan issues pertain to
2 flooding, runoff, and those. type of .environmental .
3 things. Those are all site plan issues.
4 What we have before us is the difference in
5 use from what it is what is already allowed to
6 what is being proposed. That's what we have before
7 us. I would ask you again not to applaud, whether
8 you are in favor or opposed.
9 MS. JEAN BAUDHUIN: My name is Jean
10 Baudhuin. Could we have the overhead on again? I
11 have some documents. I'd like to show.
12 Commissioners, Chair,- thank you for the
13 opportunity. As I am sure you're aware, your
14 recommendation on this project is monumental. You
15 will be changing the character and the vision of
16 Lakeville with each vote.
17 In Mr. Licht's application review, Number C,
18 the Review Analysis: "Policy 10 on page 48 of the
19 Comprehensive Plan does identify general matters
20 which may be considered. It establishes a
21 consistent foundation upon which the City Council
22 and the Planning Commission can evaluate and decide
23 upon the Amendment request."
24 He leaves it open for us to discuss
25 transportation, the streets, and the highways, that
81
1 they have adequate capacity to serve the proposed
2 use. With three full interchanges within five
3 miles, promoting traffic and growth on 185th Street
4 seems fiscally irresponsible.
5 It should be noticed that the competition
6 or, excuse me, the completion of the full
7 interchange was already in Lakeville's long-term
8 Transportation Plan but scheduled years. down the
9 road. No pun intended.
10 Our neighborhood meeting that we had on
11 August 18th of 1997 that we received from our City
12 Administrator, Robert Erickson, stated that this
13 would be approximately ten years down the line
14 (indicating.).
15 This was consistent with the careful growth
16 management promoted at public input meetings. It
17 also made sense since there is significant funding
18 required to expand these roads and interchange
19 projects. This normally requires appropriations,
20 applications, input, and money from the State and
21 Federal government.
22 I also received a letter from our City
23 Attorney stating that and this was on September
24 17th, 1999, that: "As Mayor Zaun stated at the
25 last City Council meeting, a public hearing will be
82
1 conducted and appropriate notice will be given
2 providing all interested residents an opportunity
3 for involvement" (indicating)..
4 This was pertaining to Kenrick Avenue, which
5 you already voted on. However, the Dakota County
6 Board of Commissioners are still voting the next
7 month on the interchange, and their consulting
8 firm.
9 Go on. The Target will. not come without a
10 full interchange in this area and without the
11 realignment of Kenrick Avenue. If expanding the
12 roads and interchanges requires major funding, who
13 is going to pay for it? Apparently, the City of
14 Lakeville, which is we, the taxpayers, are
15 committing a significant portion of these costs.
16 Hopefully, this is not done at the expense of other
17 community needs.
18 The Metropolitan Council--I'11 have to go
19 this way (indicating)--ranked the reconstruction of
20 185th Street from County Road 91 in Scott. County to
21 County Road 50 in Dakota County 11th and did not
22 receive federal funding far the $5.5 million that
23 it would take.
24 Minutes from the December 27th, 2000, meeting
25 of MNDOT includes commentsthatthe City of
8~
1 Lakeville has preferred addition of ramps creating
2 a diamond interchange, that there would be concerns
3 that they would not be consistent with the safety.
4 and the operation of the interstate system, and
5 there is also concern for the potential for further
6 development in the southwest quadrant."
7 It would end. upsaying that this would be a
8 last resort and that only if a commitment was made
9 by MNDOT and the Met Council to fundthe long.-term
10 solutions within five years.
11 Also, I'd like to note down here that MNDOT
12 has no plans for this stretch of I-35 in the near
13 future and that the bridges are not in need of
14 replacement at this time.
15 And I also got some information from MNDOT
16 that stated that this particular bridge on 185th
17 Street, the last time it was done, was ranked. 95.5
18 percent sufficient. So it's still a pretty good
19 bridge.
20 Also, the Minnesota Department of Natural
21 Resources, pertaining to I-35 and 185th Street
22 interchange .ramps--this is dated March 1st,
23 2000--stated that their .only comment involves the
24 potential for the project to affect Lake Marion,
25 which is the likely receiving water body for any
84
1 stormwater runoff generated at this site. Lake
2 Marion is the. best fishing lake in Dakota County.
3 It experiences heavy recreational fishing
4 year-round and exhibits moderate water quality. We
5 recommend that the project be designed to not
6 increase nutrient looting to the lake.
7 We do not want another County Road 42
8 alliance for 185th Street. Safety is an issue.:
9 And without repeating, I just had this nice article
10 from the Prior Lake .American, August 21st, 1999,
it about after only one year that that road opened
12 up--this is hard to see (indicating).--but there
13 were 92 tickets issued and three fatalities.
14 That's before the other two deaths.
15 Our tax. dollars should go to managing traffic
16 and growth at County Roads 50 and 70 where
17 commercial and retail is already zoned, not 185th
18 Street and 60.
19 We have these cards for anyone who's
20 interested to give to~our Dakota County Board of
21 Commissioners stating that we don't want our
22 present tax dollars to realign Kenrick Avenue and
23 add ramps at 185th Street and 60. We want to spend
24 our tax dollars. on County Roads 50 for our-
25 businesses that are already there, and 70. Manage.
85
1 traffic and growth; don't promote it. Thank you.
2 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much:
3 MR. MIKE SCHUTZ: Hi. My name is Mike
4 Schutz. Thanks for allowing us to speak and thank
5 you for your letter inviting us to tonight's event.
6 I have. lived in Lakeville fora little-over
7 nine years. And when my wife and I were
8 determining. where we wanted to raise our family, we
9 looked at Woodbury and we looked at Apple Valley
10 and we looked at Burnsville and Edina and all those
11 places. While they're great communities and they
12 all have big boxes and they have lots of
13 development, that wasn't what we were looking for.
14 By you voting in favor of this zoning change,
15 you're sticking the big box a good probably
16 thousand yards .from my front door. When 185th
17 Street went through to Scott County, I got to meet
18 15,000 people a day from Prior Lake. I don't feel
19 like meeting their spouses during the day while
20 they're at work. Okay?
21 That road is wholly inadequate for what it
22 has now. What amazes me and I don't even know
23 who's responsible for it. I don't know if you`re
24 responsible for it or if the City Council is
25 responsible for it, but it took three people dying
86
1 just to get some temporary stop-and-go lights at
2 the end of my subdivision so that my kids .and my
3 wife and I didn't have to risk our life to go
4 someplace.
5 All of a sudden, Byron Watschke wants to sell
6 his land and Target wants to put in a store. and I'm
7 getting freeway ramps going down south on 35; I'm
8 getting two-lane, four-lane, six-lane highways; I'm
9 getting roads. I'm a taxpayer. I've been living
10 here for nine years. .You want to represent me?
11 Then vote against this.
12 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
13 MS. DEB SODERGREN: Good evening. I did
14 stop by City Hall here and I did get a copy of the.
15 proposal.
16 CHAIR DROTNING: I'm sorry. Would you
17 state your name, please?
18 MS. DEB SODERGREN: Sure. My name is Deb
19 Sodergren.
20 And so I wanted to take a look.-- I'm going
21 to address the 96 acres.. And so what I've done is
22 I did look at the proposal and I needed a visual of
23 what this was going to Look like. And so I did go
24 to the Dakota County web site and I pulled some
25 information off that, because ir. the proposal,
87
1 there's an aerial view of Cedar Avenue and County
2 Road 42. That didn't do it for me. I needed it a
3 little more clear. And this is what I came up
4 with.
5 Kmart is 12.71 acres. The Burnsville
6 Marketplace, which is Michael's, Talbots, Toys R
7 Us, Office Max, that's 26.70 acres. Burnhaven:
8 This would include where. Target currently is in
9 Burnsville, Slumberland, Linens 'N Things, 20.94
10 acres. This one would be the Burnsville Mall where
11 there's Dayton's, Penney's, Sears, 97.94 acres.
12 So if that's what I'm looking. at, I choose
13 not to. I did take a copy of Resources, Inc., of
14 their survey .that they did.. 25 percent of the
15 people want a grocery store, 3 percent .want a
16 clothing store, l0 percent want a discount store,
17 25 percent .don't want a change. So therefore, I
18 don't think rezoning or giving your. consent to
19 rezone this would be applicable. Thank you.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
21 MS. JOANN WILSON: I've heard a lot of
22 nays. against this project. I'm JoAnn Wilson
23 CHAIR DROTNING: Could you state your
24 name, please, JoAnn?
25 (Laughter.. )
88
1 MS. JOANN WILSON: of Lakeville. I've
2 lived in .the community since 1986 so I have seen a
3 lot of change and.. we all don't typically, humans
4 don't like change, but we're sprawling; we're
5 suburban. I want to give dollars into my
6 community, I want jobs in my community, and I want
7 the convenience.
8 And I think this project --.typically, it's
9 zoned compatibly. If you change it to a retail,
10 everything I've heard tonight doesn't make a heck
11 of a lot of difference: traffic, the volume. I
12 mean, it's not giving anything away as far as
13 looking at what they want to .use it for and what
14 it's already zoned for or you know, as a park.
15 I mean, you have retail and you have business.
16 Traffic-wide, I think you're going to have
17 more traffic if it's an office. building coming in
18 all at the same time, early morning, and leaving at
19 the same time from the Cities coming home. If it's
20 retail, it's going to spread itself out. So I'm
21 for it. Thank you.
22 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
23 MS. AMELIA DAMLO: Good evening. My .name
24 is Amelia Damlo and I live in Lakeville.
25 I'll keep most of my comments economics since
89
1 that hasn't come up yet. The numbers that I
2 present this evening came from one of three
3 resources. Either the City. of Lakeville, Dakota
4 County Economic Development Partnership, or the
5 Minnesota Work Force Center.
6 The labor force in Dakota County is expected
7 to grow by over a hundred thousand people between
8 1990 and 2010 and this will account for nearly 24
9 percent of the total labor growth force in the
10 entire state of Minnesota.
it The estimated population of Lakeville in 2000
12 was 40,500. Current industrial sites in Lakeville,
13 such as Airlake, employ 4,000, and the Fairfield
14 Business Campus employs over 300. This
15 incorporates all jobs there: retail, food service,
16 administrative.
17 So 4300 to 40,000 people. I am in definite
18 complete agreement that Lakeville needs to create
19 more jobs for its citizens. Businesses in
20 Lakeville. enjoy a lot of advantages. We have lot s
21 of land. We have a great labor pool. We have a
22 safe quality environment. We have superior
23 schools.
24 And I do think Dakota. County is trying to
25 enhance ecomonic development. They offer things
90
1 such as Dakota County capital financing to
2 businesses that they feel are value added. These '
3 businesses are agri business, biomedical, computer
4 hardware/software, manufacturing firms, and others..
5 Distributors, franchisers, retailers,
6 restaurateurs and wholesale operators do not
7 qualify for this. Industrial development .revenue.
8 bonds are also a source~of low ~.nterest rate
9 financing for manufacturers but not retailers.
10 Lakeville needs to work with the County in
11 trying to promote this type of growth. Our
12 community needs head of household income
13 opportunities.
14 In a 1999 community survey, reported median
15 family annual income in Lakeville .was $61,875. And
16 I am not. convinced. that a retail development will
17 be able to supply this type of income for more than
18 a handful of their employees.
19 According to the Minnesota Work Force Center,
20 .benefits that a head of household income earner are
21 more likely to need are in full-time jobs and not
22 available in part-time jobs.
23 As education requirements increase, so do the
24 benefits offered to these people needing these
25 jobs.. Current jobs requiring a bachelor's degree.
91
1 or .higher, of those jobs, over 60 percent offer a
2 complete benefits. package. And these are the types
3 of jobs Lakeville needs.
4 Currently, there are 77 77 percent of job
5 vacancies in the metro area, by hourly wage.-- by
6 hourly range are between $6 and $13.99 an hour, and
7 current wages at a large retail outlet are $8 to
8 $13 an hour.
9 In the most recent .findings from the
10 Minnesota Work Force Center, there are three
11 sectors: retail trade, healthcare, and
12 accommodation that have the most job vacancies, and
13 retail trade industry is comprising the largest
14 share of these vacancies.
15 Of the 46 percent job vacancies in the metro
16 area, there were three they were in three
17 concentrated groups. Sales: There are 18,000 job
18 vacancies in sales. There. are over 13,000 job
19 vacancies in office admin., and almost 10,000 in
20 food. and .preparation.
21 The two occupational groups in the ..metro area
22 with the most job vacancies right now, which are
23 defined as a thousand job vacancies or more, are
24 cashiers, which are 8,000 vacancies, and retail
25 salespersons, which are 7800 vacancies.
92
1 These holes in the labor force are already
2 quite large. Lakeville does not need to make them
3 any bigger. Only one occupational group has an
4 average number of positions that are open less than
5 60 days in the classifieds, and that is business
6 and financial operations. This indicates that
7 there are plenty of qualified people out there for
8 these positions if they are not open that long.
9 Lakeville does not need to create more retail
10 jobs. There are plenty out there. With the
11 tightening labor market throughout the country and
12 Dakota County and Lakeville, labor force is an
13 increasingly critical factor in site location
14 decisions and that is why I have many concerns
15 regarding rezoning or regarding the land use change
16 for the property from primarily office
17 park/business to retail. Thank you.
18 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
19 MS. JUDY STRAHAN: Hi. My name is Judy
20 Strahan and I'm speaking on behalf o£ the 181st
21 Street West/Acorn Heights neighborhood.
22 We wish to go on record. as fully supporting
23 the Avalon group in their proposal. We believe
24 that our small neighborhood of approximately 12
25 households will be impacted the greatest and that
93
1 this development will mean a significant change in
2 the .rhythm of our lives here.
3 No one in the City of Lakeville is as
4 affected as our neighborhood is. It is our sincere
5 .belief,. after much neighborhood discussion, that
6 this property is the most desirable location for
7 the type of commercial use that's proposed. It is,
8 without doubt, the most logical location for such a
9 development within the City of Lakeville.
10 After careful consideration, we feel the
11 benefits of TimberCrest at Lakeville far outweighs
12 the current use designation.
13 The Avalon Group has been very responsive to
14 our questions and concerns and, therefore, we, as a
15 neighborhood, lend our full support to The Avalon
16 Group and their proposed development of TimberCrest
17 and we recommend that the City of Lakeville, as
18 well as any additional governing bodies, approve
19 their amendments and applications. Thank you.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
21 MR. SHAWN SODERGREN: Hi. My name is
22 Shawn Sodergren. Not to second what a lot of
23 people have said here this evening, I really don't
24 think Lakeville needs more low-paying jobs or more
25 traffic.
94
1 My concerns are with the traffic problem. I
2 haven't seen in these studies really any meaningful
3 traffic projection. I understand that Benshoof &
4 Associates probably do have a fairly comprehensive
5 plan that we haven't had a chance to look at.
6 We've all talked .about the realignment of
7 Kenrick Avenue, the full interchange at I-35 and
8 60, widening the bridge, widening 60 all the .way to
9 Scott County, argued against the business or
10 office park, specifically with the a.m. travel time
11 that may possibly be true, or p.m. I don't .see how
12 that's possible. We already have a traffic problem
13 on 185th Street with the p.m.
14 Even with these changes, T can't understand
15 how things are going to be made any better. If you
16 go to a Target at 8 o'clock in the morning, there's
17 probably nobody there, except a few trucks
18 unloading their goods; 5 o'clock at night, it's
19 very busy.. It's just going to compound the 5
20 o'clock problem. Anything you put in there is
21 going to compound the traffic problem.
22 But if we're going to put somethingin there,
23 we might as .well put something in there that is
24 going to pxovide jobs to this community,. not
25 another big box. We don't need Lakeville to look
95
1 like the next Apple Valley or Burnsville. Thank
2 you.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much.
4 You're going to make your run up, Mr.
5 Krueger.
6 MR. RICK KRUEGER: I'll say that this
7 didn't happen right here across 185th.
8 (Laughter.}
9 CHAIR DROTNING: And when I saw you
10 earlier, you didn't see anyone with baseball bats
11 or anything like that.
12 MR. .RICK KRUEGER: That's right. Well,
13 first of all, I want to thank the Committee for
14 taking the time. to listen, the Commission. I know
15 that this is a legislative requirement because it
16 provides an opportunity for the public to have some
17 input and it puts due diligence in due process.
18 I am concerned that there's been what I would
19 .view as a lack of due diligence, examining some of
20 the basic premises on which this whole case is
21 built; specifically, the 2 million baseline related
22 to the office space.
23 I think that the City consultants spent a
24 considerable amount of time this evening, for the
25 first time, I might add, trying to put a positive
96
1 spin on that number. But there is a question of
2 what's a reasonable person there's a standard
3 there that what's a reasonable person supposed to
4 think.
5 I'll show you a couple of properties. here.
6 Here's one: US Bank Place, which is a building I
7 .have an office. in, and Ghat particular building,
8 which includes the tower,-the building next to it,
9 andall of this area in front, totals 1.4 million
10 square feet. .It's a 1.4 million square foot
11 property.
12 I think what you have to ask yourself is not
13 .what's the .maximum potential regarding office space
14 but what's likely to occur there. You know, you
15 could go the other side. You could say: Well,
16 what's the maximum potential related to commercial
17 space there? We didn't hear that number, did we?
18 I think that you have to ask, and. you can
19 take a poll in hexe tonight: Does a reasonable
2.0 person think you're going to be filling this type
21 of space and even-more than this on that property?
22 And personally, I don't.
23 I think that the reason that is most
24 significant is because everything if you look at
25 how the proposal hinges together. and how the
97
1 comparisons are made, everything from environment
2 to transportation to economics to infrastructure
3 all wrap around that number, and that's the
4 comparison that's made. I just ask you. to look at
5 the size of`that and whether or not you think
6 that's reasonable.
7 It's not just a classification issue; it's a
8 scope issue here. The again, I think the
9 probability for this occurring with this type of
10 space of two million square feet is just
11 infinitesimal.
12 The maximum the office space, again, going
13 back to that, do we even know.-- has anybody
14 questioned whether or not the 30 percent set aside.
15 was applied to that property when you came. up with
16 the 2 million for open space? That's already
17 required by ordinance, from what I understand.
18 What about the wetlands? Were they deducted
19 as they were in the other project? Again, it's a
20 reasonable person standard that I ask you to apply.
21 On a related matter, which occurred. at the
22 Environmenal.Committee, and I'm sorry to take up
23 your time with this, but there was a City staf f
24 member who got the last word, which is fairly
25 typical in these types of public forums. And he
98
1 dismissed what I proposed was an alternative urban
2 area review process, basically saying it wasn't
3 applicable.
4 I.was urging him to do it because you can
5 pull disconnected projects together at one time and`
6 look at the environmentalal consequences. I think
7 you should think about doing that; I think you
8 should do that, for basically everything between
9 Orchard Lake and Lake Marion.
10 But I will tell you that despite the fact.
11 that that individual thought that this was not a
12 worthy consideration, I checked with House research
13 at the legislature. The caucus staff heads up some
14 of the environmental research. They thought it, was
15' very appropriate:
16 The former administrator that chaired the
17 Finance Committee that funded the EQB and the
18 Planning Department thought it was .very
19 appropriate. The director of the review process
20 fox the EQB thought it was very appropriate. And I
21 might. add.: I served. in the legislature during that
22 time and served on that committee that did the
23 funding and ultimately chaired it.
24 So I'm telling you I think it's appropriate.
25 I only .regret that I didn't have time during he
99
1 Environment Committee to be able to respond in this
2 fashion. Thank you for your time.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you, sir. Maybe
4 you can I know who you are.
5 MR. RICK KRUEGER: Rick Krueger,. 11605 -
6 177th Street.
7 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much.
8 And I bought my own lunch.
9 MR. RICK KRUEGER:. That's true.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Any other questions or
11 comments?
12 MS. MEG SCHARMER: Hi. My name is Meg
13 Scharmer and I just want to say I'm not against
14 growth in Lakeville. In fact, I would love the
15 City of Lakeville to pursue something on this
16 Office Park/Business Campus side. It would be a
17 beautiful .business campus. It could be a high tech
18 firm, with 15 percent retail, and restaurants
19 included. It would be just as beautiful as the
20 Target picture that shows here with the wetlands
21 and the trees.
22 And I think that's something the City should
23 pursue. It's the head of household income jobs
24 that a high tech firm or an office park would
25 provide. And I think with the Avalon project,
100
1 there are many other sites in the City that are
2 available. And I'm just going to go through here.
3 Bear. with me. I had to write things down so I'd
4 stay under the three minutes.
5 I would also like the Planning Commission.--
6 I'd like to know what the build-out sites for the
7 commercial properties that are currently available
8 and what. the. total build-out for the 96 acres on
9 the Avalon property is.
10 I understand they're going to be doing it in
11 phases and the Phase I is the Super Target. The
12 Phases. II and III we don't know anything about.
13 This is just a schematic site plan, subject to
14 change. So again, I want to know what the total
15 build-out of this,9b acres is.
16 The first site that we have. here that's
17 commercially available, and this is all in David
18 Licht's report, was the Heritage Commons commercial
19 site. There's 40 acres there. and this goes back
20 again to our community survey,- what the people in
21 Lakeville wanted, and one of them was a grocery
22 store. 25 percent of the people said that. And
23 this is where we thought we'd be getting it. It
24 sits there. You know, I would love the City to
25 promote growth, get the grocery store there or get.
101
1 something there.
2 The. second commercial site available is a
3 McStop. And when we moved into the area about.
4 seven years ago, this is where I thought a lot of
5 the commercial retail. was going.. We checked the
6 Comprehensive Plan and noted that the site was
7 Residential. Then it changed t~ Business Campus.
8 We knew this was all commercial and, again,
9 we thought a lot of the commercial retail would be
10 going here. There is 50, 45, 20,.20 acres.
11 There's a lot of acreage there that Avalon could
12 build on and certainly would accommodate a Super
13 Target.
14 This. other property is the Welsh property,
15 which I'm not real familiar with. It's up on 46.
16 But again, it's 20 acres. 20 acres is a lot. We
17 heard what the Burnsville Target and that whole
18 strip mall. with 8lumberland and Linens 'N Things.
19 I believe somebody said it was 26 acres.. You could
20 .certainly fit a lot on this, as well as the McStop.
21 The other commercial sites that are available
22 in Lakeville is off of Highway 50. We have the
23 Argonne Farms at 65 acres, which would be a
24 terrific spot for a Super Target or and that
25 would accommodate a lot of other retail.
102
1 Here's the. Avalon site--this should be
2 proposed site, by the way, I would think--at a
3 hundred acres. Again, 30 acres was going to be
4 taken out for the buffer for Acorn Heights, and.
5 then the wetland area.
6 One site that is a commercial. area that is
7 currently zoned commercial is not even included in
8 David Licht's report. and I'm not sure why. Only.-•=
9 it might be something in regards to the contingency
10 or the stipulation that he's asking you to consider
11 when you make a motion.
12 Let me just .kind of read verbatim here now.
13 The Comprehensive Plan amendment change submitted
14 by The Avalon Group only asked for this 96 acres
15 only asked for this 96 acres. It doesn't ask for.
16 the three stipulations that are listed in David
17 Licht's report.
18 I think it's highly improper for .the Planning
19 Commission to put this in their motion. I feel
20 that this is a significant change in our
21 Comprehensive Plan because not only would you be
22 changing our Comprehensive Plan if you make a
23 recommendation on this Avalon site but you would
24 also indirectly and down the line be changing our
25 - Comprehensive Plan on this site and this site
•
103
1 (indicating) .
2 I think if you change our Land Use. Plan
3 tonight, this will eventually be a green light for
4 Avalon's development. I know we're here just for.
5 the Comprehensive Plan Amendment, .but, in essence,
6 this is a green light for them to go on--with their
7 development. And I believe this will change
8 Lakeville, the face of Lakeville, forever. And I
9 know what kind of impact it's going to make and
10 that is one of the reasons why I moved to
11 Lakeville, to not have that kind of impact.
12 I think Avalon has the opportunity with
13 all these commercial sites that I showed tonight,
14 they have the opportunity to build a wonderful
15 retail development on land that is already zoned
16 commercial and I would urge them to look into these
17 proposed or these commercial sites and see if
18 they can come up with just as nice a plan. Thank
19 you.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: -Thank you.
21 MS. NATALIE CURWICK: Hi. My name is
22 Natalie Curwick and I live in Lakeville. I have
23 lived here for 20 years. I grew up here, graduated
24 from high school here. I decided I wanted to raise
25 my family here because it did have a small town
104
1 atmosphere. That small town atmosphere has been
2 gone for a long time.
3 I also work in a big~box and I don't want to
4 spend my money in Burnsville at Target. I don't
S want to spend my money in Apple .Valley at Cub. I
6 want to spend it in my own commixnity. I want it tp
7 go back to my children's schools. I understand
8 that those issues are not here tonight.
9 I also looked at I don't have the visual
10 aids. Those sites I do know are not big enough.
li They would not be able to set aside that 30 percent
12 - to not develop on.
13 And the things that the. gentlemen were saying
14 earlier about the runoff and all that, I think the
15 increased traffic would be more so with the
16 Corporate Campus than it would be for the
17 Commercial., from what I was hearing tonight. I
18 didn't do my homework ...,like a lot of these others
19 did. But from what I heard tonight, I think the
20 best thing for Lakeville would be for you to go
21 ahead and .rezone. Thank you.
22 CHAIR DROTNING: Thankyou.
23 MR. TIM WATTS: Hi. My name is Tim
24 Watts. I live on Judicial Road. I guess I'd like
25 to comment on the last comment. If we think The
105
1 Avalon Group is going to come in here and save our
2 school system, I think we're all crazy. We're not.
3 looking for The Avalon Group to save our school
4 system,-nor do we need a Target to come in and save.
5 our school system. I agree
6 CHAIR DROTNING: I'm sorry to interrupt
7 you, but if you could address your comments to the
8 Commission and we will determine if the comments
9 are valid or not. This is not a debate.
10 MR. TIM WATTS: Fine.
11 CHAIR DROTNLNG: Thank you.
12 MR. TIM WATTS: I wish we could have the
13 site pictures back up again because one thing about
14 this site, to me, I see a round hale in a square
15 peg. You know, it just does not fit.
16 You see, you've got.-- on this side, you've
17 got. tons of residential over here. .You've got
18 Bracketts and all the affluent homes going over
19 here. You've got residential to the north. You've
20 got tons of, which are cut out of the picture here,
21 apartment buildings over in the Southfork Addition.
22 You've got down here a nice new church and a
23 whole residential area here. You've really got
24 nothing that barks for retail here. And we've got
25 50, which is kind of in a blight, which I know
106.
1 we're trying to address, and that's certainly
2 appreciated here in town, but I don't think that
3 adding this Target down there is doing anything to
4 that area.
5 When you look at Lakeville, Lakeville is a
6 very nice area, compared to some of the finer
7 suburbs in the north, too, some of the pretty ones.
8 Lakeville is a pretty town. Do we really want to
9 ruin this nice corridor, this pristine corridor
10 that we come into, our opening, our entryway into
11 the Twin Cities? This is a nice area.
12 But when you leave the Twin Cities, it's kind
13 of nice to get past 50. You go, "Geez, I'm out of
14 the blight." You're driving past the lakes. It
15 looks nice. What are we talking about? We're
16 talking about dragging retail now farther down,
17 right next to the lake.
18 On the other side of the lake, now we've got
19 retail we're trying to start there with the
20 theaters and McStops and that's fine. .But. we don't
21 want to create another San Francisco El Camino
22 Royale. (sp) and drag real estate all the way down
23 to this very pristine corridor in Lakeville in this
24 very beautiful town we have.
25 I think we're trying to force something here
107
1 that has a benefit for one group and does not have
2 a benefit for all of Lakeville. Driving five
3 minutes to a Target, I don't see how that's an
4 inconvenience to anybody, not in this town.
5 I think most of the people moved out here
6 because they wanted to live around the lake, they
7 wanted affluent homes, they wanted to get out of
8 the hustle and bustle of the Apple.Valleys and the
9 bigger cities like that that have all the
10 congestion.
11 I don't see that this is any benefit to
12 Lakeville. I don't see $3 million as being the way
13 to sell our soul. I think we can get $3 million
14 another way. I think if The Avalon Group wants to-
15 build, there are other properties here, too.
16 The other big problem that. I have is the
17 infrastructure isn't there. 185th Street isn't.
18 built. The Target will be built first. There is
19 an awful lot of traffic .coming down there. The
20 street simply isn't ready for it. We just don't
21 need that kind of traffic on 185th, nor any of the
22 other roads around.
23 I think for The Avalon Group, to them, it's
24 beneficial to be sitting between.. 50, between this
25 new four-lane that's going to go up on 185th and be
108
1 right there on 35. It's a benefit to really one
2 person, one group, I see, and I don't see it as a
3 benefit to Lakeville.. I don't mind driving five
4 minutes to a Target.
5 Bring us a Cub, bring us another grocery
6 store, something like that, but .another retail
7 store is not really what we'd like. I think the
8 business park that you've got maybe possibly that
9 would be in there would be a much better idea.
10 I think the plan all along, it's been talked
it about residential. Then you finally acquiesce to a
12 commercial park. Do we need to now really jump to
13 retail all of a sudden? I mean, all along .the ..plan
14 has kind of been to keep that .somewhat residential
15 and now we've kind of gone and said, "Well, okay.
16 Maybe we need to do something commercial in there,"
17 but now, do we want to just jump that much farther
18 and go retail? I'm sorry. I disagree. I wish you
19 guys would vote no, very respectfully. Thank you
20 very much.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
22 MS. PATTY WETZEL: Hi. My name is Patty'
23 Wetzel. I have two comments and two questions for
24 you.
25 In this report that Mr. Licht has prepared
109
1 for you, in Section I of the Economic Development
2 portion where it states that 96 percent of
3 residents currently make their household purchase s
4 outside of Lakeville, my question is: What
5 percentage of Lakeville residents are going to make
6 their purchases at this store?
7 And my other question is down at the
8 bottom here, on page 17: "Assuming that the
9 proposed Avalon Group project has an estimated of
10 $90'million market value." I'm trying to
11 understand $90 million. And so I believe that the.
12 way to go about figuring out that is you could take
13 $90 million and you want to divide it by 550,000
14 square feet and you get approximately $164 a square
15 foot. Does that seem reasonable?
16 I looked at, for a comparison.-- in 1999,
17 Lakeville had 250,000 square feet at 14.3 million,
18 so 14.3 divided by 250,000 gives you approximately
19 $57 a square foot.
20 So my question is: Why is this number 300
21 percent larger than the average number? And that,
22 again, would make the 3.8 million in question, if
23 that's what we're going to get from taxes.. And the
24 2.2 from school, is that a correct number? Ls that
25 a number that we can base these calculations on?
110
1 And I hope you look into that. Thank you.
~ CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much.
3 It's kind of a unique Comprehensive Plan proposal.
4 If this were a site plan review, we wouldn't be
5 talking about taxes. We wouldn't be talking about
6 any of these kind of things because, when you get
7 to the next component, you're only talking and
8 we will.
9 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: But it's in the
10 plan.
11 CHAIR DROTNING: No, no, no. But we
12 will. I'm saying it's interesting.. We don't get
13 to talk about this except when we did. the
14 Comprehensive Plan in the first place and we were
15 looking and scoping and being. global and those kind
16 of things. So it's unusual that we have the
17 opportunity, the Planning Commission, except.-in
18 this particular case even to be able to address
19 that issue, but we can.
20 Good evening. Sorry to interrupt you.
21 MS. MARY HOKANSON: No, no problem. Mary
22 Hokanson and I'm a Lakeville resident and have been
23 since about 1991. I grew up in a small town south
24 of here and lived in the northwest suburbs of
25 Wayzata, Plymouth, and Minnetonka for about 11
111
1 years before I moved here, so I wanted to think of
2 Lakeville as kind of ore of those suburbs
3 (indicating).
4 What I'm afraid of having a big box put. right
5 in the middle of our neighborhoods is it doesn't
6 attract they attract all the same retail. We're
7 going to have another fabric store and we'll have
8 another craft store and we'll have another discount
9 party supply store.
10 You don't see the you keep talking about
11 specialty retail. I still drive to Excelsior; I
12 still drive to Wayzata very, very often to buy the
13 specialty gifts from those upscale little shopping
14 stores that would be nice if we had down here..
15 And I think when you go putting a big box in
16 the middle here, that's the only type of retail you.
17 attract around it. You look at every big box
18 around it and you don't see these little neat
19 stores. Lakeville isn't going to be that place
20 that people are going to take a Saturday morning
21 and drive to t o go shopping because you can walk
22 down the main street and hit alJ. these neat little
23 shops.
24 So if we could keep you know, if you look
25 at some of those .cities, they have big boxes,
112
1 absolutely, but they're put out away from the
2 intimate parts of the city. And I feel that this
3 is like right in our neighborhood, right in our
4 area.
5 Zoned as an office park, you could put some
6 upscale shops in with those, just like you see. in
7 some of those neater areas that I tend to frequent.
8 So I'd like to see some more options on that end
9 for us here in Lakeville because there's people. who
10 want to spend their money here. But if we tend to
11 concentrate. on that, I think they tend to flock
12 that type of retail together. Thanks.
13 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much.
14 Any other comments, new, that haven't been brought-
15 forth at this time? We're well aware of the
16 traffic concerns. There will be discussion about
17 the big box as part of our land use discussion. We
18 get to do tonight what we spent a year doing not
19 too long ago and getting kind of a dry run at
20 reviewing the Comprehensive Plan that we just put
21 in place.
22 MR. TODD BURNHAUSER: Members of the
23 Planning Commission,-my name is Todd Burnhauser,
24 Executive Director of the Lakeville Area Chamber of
25 Commerce, 20730. Holyoke Avenue.
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1 On behalf of the Lakeville Area Chamber of
2 Commerce, I would like to read the following public
3 policy statement concerning the proposed
4 TimberCrest at Lakeville commercial development.
5 The development of this statement included
6 the. creation of a policy from our Government
7 Affairs Committee, survey of our general
8 membership, andsuper majority approval of the
9 Chamber Board of Directors.
10 The Lakeville Are a. Chamber of Commerce
11 serving as an advocate for the business community.
12 and its members supports the. request to amend the
13 land use designation from. Office Park/Business
14 Campus to Commercial on approximately 96 acres of
15 land for the currently proposed TimberCrest at
16 Lakeville protect.
17 This project supports the Chamber mission of
18 serving as a resource to its members and the
19 community while enhancing their economic vitality
20 for the following reasons: This proposed
21 commercial development,. with an estimated $90
22 million market value, when fully developed, will
23 generate approximately $3.8 million in taxes each
24 year, with Independent School District 194
25 receiving approximately $2.25 million; Dakota
114
1 County, approximately $820,000; City of Lakeville,
2 approximately $667,0.00; and other tax index
3 districts, approximately $76,000. It should be
4 noted that this project receives no TIF or other
5 special financing.
6 Reason two: Increasing the
7 commercial/industrial tax base which. pays a much
8 higher rate than residential results in lower taxes
9 for residential development and existing commercial
10 industrial development.
11 Number three: Commercial property normally
12 places little demand on general government, park
13 and recreation, or school systems. Currently,
14 Lakeville ranks sixth for Dakota County .cities in
15 commercial/industrial property as a percent-of tax
16 base at 10.2 percent. This percent needs to be
17 increased to ensure affordable tax rates for
18 Lakeville residents and businesses.
19 Four: This project also helps achieve the
20 Chamber's previous support of highway interchange
21 improvements at County Road 50, 60, and 70. The
22 addition of southbound ramps at County Road 60,
23 realignment. at Kenrick Avenue, and-additional
24 traffic lanes. and signals on 185th Street is
25 essential for further improvements at County Roads
115
1 50 and 70.
2 These interchanges have a critical impact to
3 the viability of the operations of businesses
4 located on the I-35 corridor, commercial retail
5 development, and Airlake Industrial Park. This
6~ project's future growth is controlled by additional
7 improvements to the.County Road 60 infrastructure
8 which must provide the safety and security for all
9 Lakeville residents and visitors.
10 In short, the Chamber supports the currently.
11 proposed TimberCrest at Lakeville commercial
12 project along with our existing commercial
13 districts for their impact on the increasing
14 property tax revenue, infrastructure. improvements,
15 creation of additional job opportunities for the
16 residents of Lakeville, and the attraction of
17 additional consumers to our established commercial
18 retail facilities.
19 Thank you for considering our comments.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you. Once again,
21 hopefully, those of you who are comingforward have
22 information and questions that have not. already
23 been asked.
24 MR. SCOTT ENGHc My name is Scott Engh
25 and I live in Oak Shores, which is just south of
116
1 .this proposed site.
2 We moved there in about 1994 and at that
3 time, behind us was zoned single family. Now
4 that's the proposed site for this Kenrick Avenue to
5 be realigned. So instead of having houses behind
6 us, we're going to have a 55-mile-an-hour road.
7 That zoning was changed in 1998.
8 And also, in 1999, this area that is proposed
9 was just changed from low density housing to now to
10 have some commercial value. Also, in 1999, we
11 rezoned right next door to us for Pulte Townhomes,
12 which increased the homes in our area from a
13 proposed 12 homes to"80 homes. Our roads at this
14 time cannot handle that increase in traffic.
15 I want to propose to you that Acorn Heights
16 is not the most affected area in housing. I do not
17 see Highway 60 as being a buffer zone to my home.
18 Acorn Heights is not going to see the .15,000 cars
19 going to Super Target. They're going to be
20 buffered by the Super Target. All they're seeing.
21 is the backside of Super Target.
22 I'll take the backside. of Super Target to
23 15,000 cars driving a half a block away from my
24 home. And I'll take the 18 acres or 14 acres of
25 wooded land in-between my .home and Target before
11.'7
1 I'll take 15,000 cars, on average. We're talking
2 probably 50,000 to 60,000 cars from Thanksgiving
3 through Christmas.
4 Also, I'd just like to pYopose that you
5 know, when you look at statistics and someone says
6 that 96 percent of the people shop out of
7 Lakeville, I'd say. it's probably closer to a
8 hundred that shop out of Lakeville. I'm not saying
9 that 96 percent are grocery shopping out. of
10 Lakeville. I'd say it's probably closer to 50
11 percent that's done out of Lakeville. And what
12 you're saying is that it's just the statistics that
13 says. that 96 percent shop out of Lakeville.
14 Also, I just wanted to look at the aspect
15 that I shop up at Cub Foods every once in a while
16 in Burnsville and I was shopping there after 9
17 o'clock about a month ago. And even though I shake
18 a little bit here talking in front of people, I
19 don't shake in front of gangs of kids. But I'll
20 tell you what, I had a gang of kids tearing a sign
21 off from a signpost at 9 o'clock up in Burnsville
22 and I don't want. that to happen a half a block away
23 from my home. Thank you.
24 CHAIR DROTNING: Once again, I'd like to
25 --.thank you. The concerns that have been
i
118
1 addressed that we are very aware of and will be
2 discussed as part of this are. traffic, safety,
3 vandalism, and we have a lot of general views far,
4 against., and we have low-paying jobs, and the.
5 interchange has already-- we will have some. brief
6 discussion on that, but those things .are already
7 before us.
8 And. it's not a question of how many times
9 that we hear the same thing. If we've got it,
10 we've got it. It should not be of the element that
11 we will discuss or is not relevant to this
12 proposal. Good evening.
13 MS. JACKIE KLESCH: Hi. My name is
14 Jackie Klesch and I live here in Lakeville. And I
15 wrote a letter to the editor of both Sun Current
16 and .Life & Times. And the Life & Times has not
17 was not printed and Sun Current just appeared
18 ..yesterday. And in the event you. did not getthe
19 chance to read it, I would like to read it to you.
20 It pertains to the April '99 survey of the citizens
21 of Lakeville.
22 ".There's been a great deal of discussion
23 about the Super Target. TimberCrest development that
24 may be coming to Lakeville. Having read the
25 editorials over the past few weeks, it's hard to
119
1 say if the people of Lakeville are for or against
2 this project. So I went to City Hall for some
3 information and came up with the April '99 .survey
4 of the citizens of Lakeville.
5 °In it are a group of~very specific questions
6 on what the people like about our city and what
7 they want as far as retail development.
8 "Question number 8 on the survey reads:
9 'What do you like most about Lakeville?' The
10 number one xesponse was location, 34 percent of
11 those surveyed; followed by small town ambiance, 19
12 percent; quiet/peaceful, 14 percent; and then open
13 space, SO percent.
14 "Question number 9 on the. survey reads: 'What
15 do you like least about it?' The number one
16 response was growth/crowding at 31 percent.
17 "Question 159 reads: 'What types of retail
18 or service businesses would you like to see
19 available in Lakeville?' The top responses were
20 .tied at no answer, 25 percent, and grocery store,.
21 25 percent; followed by none, 19 percent;
22 restaurant, 12 percent; and discount store, 10
23 percent.
24 "Now, I'm not a statistician, but I would say
25 the survey .indicates that most people are pretty
120
1 happy with the way things are right now. Maybe we
2 could use another grocery store, but other than
3 that, people are pretty satisfied with the way
4 retail is.
5 °If you would like t o see the survey, it's
6 right here at City Hall. It's available to any
7 citizen.. But let's play the devil's advocate-and
8 say we can't. stop progress; commercial and retail
9 development are inevitable. Okay. Then let's make
10 sure it's done right. Let's choose the right type
11 of businesses to meet our needs.
12 "Let's attract the commercial projects that
13 create .real head of household jobs," as others
14 before me have said tonight, "which will add to our
15 economy and tax base, not just after-school,
16 minimum wage jobs for our children in a development
17 which will create major traffic concerns.
18 "If we are destined to have super stores in
19 our community, then at least place them carefully
20 in areas which our City planners, have designated
21 for retail use. Zoning is everything when it comes
22 to keeping our community the quiet, peaceful place
23 it is. today.
24 "If we follow the Zoning Plan, we can
25 incorporate thriving businesses without destroying
121
1 the small town ambiance. If we ignore the zoning,-
2 we will surely end up like every other suburb:
3 surrounded by big strip malls and big box stores.
4 I, for one, want more for Lakeville. This is a
5 ~ critical time for our community's future. Let's
6 try to get it right." Thank you for your time.
7 CHAIR DROTNING: After the next person
8 has given us their testimony, we will take another
9 one of my prescribed breaks.
10 MS. MARY WESCOTT: I'm short. My name is
11 Mary Wescott and I would .like to make a little
12 comment to you. My husband and I originally moved
13 to Lakeville in :1977 and reside on Crystal Lake.
14 And in 1987, we left for San Francisco and returned
15 in 1997 and came back to Lakeville. And the reason
16 we came back: We liked the community really a lot.
17 We liked Enggren's; we like everything about
18 Lakeville.
19 I have to say one of my big concerns about
20 placing this super store is the impact on our
21 environment and especially the emissions controls
22 from cars. I understand that we have to have an
23 EPA rating from the State of Minnesota for 2500
24 cars or more, and I think we should do some further
25 studying on this location as it affects our
122
1 environment.
2 And we already have species of animals .that
3 are leaving our area, the wetlands, birds, and. we
4 have trees that are going to be discontinued, and
5 deer, and other things that are affected by this
6 whole land area, so I'm not in favor of this
7 location.. Thank you.
8 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much. We
9 will take, like I say, Karl's prescribed ten-minute
10 break, which tonight it seems to be getting to be
11 it takes ten minutes for the break and then five
12 minutes to get all the Planning Commission Members
13 back here and then ten minutes to get everybody
14 seated. But it's thinned out a little bit so let's
15 just try to make it in ten minutes.
16 (A recess was .taken..)
17 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you all very. much.
18 I have one. announcement and we do have some
19 additional documentation that we received that we
20 need to put in the record. One of them is Ms.
21 Baudhuin is missing a basket.
22 MS. JEAN BAUDHUIN: Nit anymore.
23 CHAIR DROTNING: You found it. We're
24 very happy for you.
25 MS. JEAN BAUDHUIN: Our City Planner had.
123
1 it for me.
2 CHAIR DROTNING: I have in front of me
3 the signed statement in support from the 140th
4 Street or the Acorn Heights neighborhood. It
5 needs to go in the permanent record. I have a
6 sheet .from the Lakeville Citizens for Responsible
7 Growth, and I have a packet of opinion letters.
8 Some of them may be duplications of ones we already
9 have in our packet. If they are, we'll meld them
10 and keep the ones we do not already have. And
11 those are three documents I have in front of me to
12 be added to the permanent record. I would need a
13 motion.
14 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: So moved.
15 COMMISSIONER COMER: Second.
16 CHAIR DROTNING: Roll call, please.
17 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
18 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Aye.
19 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
20 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Aye.
21 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
22 COMMISSIONER KOT: Aye.
23 SECRETARY BREVIG: Drotning?
24 CHAIR DROTNING: Aye.
25 SECRETARY BREVIG: Comer?
124
1 COMMISSIONER COMER: Aye.
2 SECRETARY BREVIG: Detjen?
3 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: Aye.
4 SECRETARY BREVIG: .Wulff?
5 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Aye.
6 (Whereupon, Motion 01.15 was passed.)
7 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. And we will
8 continue the public hearing. If you would please.
9 come forward, state your name. Do me a favor:
10 State your address, too, if you don't mind, and
11 then sign in in the register.
12 MR. PAT HALEY: ..Ladies,. gentlemen, my
13 name is Pat Haley. I live at 185th Street West,
14 Lakeville, Minnesota. I have .been a resident since
15 1985.
16 I'm not asking you to throw this project out.
17 I'm not asking you to do anything but delay it,
18 delay it until you get the. problems and the issues
19 fixed. We're going to end up with a bridge not
20 being corrected on 185th for two and a half to
21 three years after that"Target store is in and I
22 don't think that that intersection can deal with
23 that kind of issue. I don't think that people in
24 the neighborhood want to deal with that kind of an
25 issue.
125
1 That's all I'm asking you is just delay the
2 project until you get your ducks in a line. And
3 that, as far as I'm concerned, is part of planning.
4 Thank you.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you, sir.
6 MR. KEN MOSLER: Good evening, ladies and
7 gentlemen. My name is Ken Mosier. I live at 17699
8 Lake Oaks Circle and I have been a resident here
9 since 1994. Thank you for your patience and your
10 attentiveness. I think it's appreciated for a
11 matter of this concern.
12 I really want to offer comments on really a
13 couple of technical issues on the application and
14 maybe share with you. I'd .like to have one
15 response.. It's more. of a philosophical nature.
16 I think one of the issues here was brought up
17 by Mr. Drotning before the break and that was
18 talking about this whole issue. of the Comprehensive
19 Plan. We just went. through a very extensive
20 program and process that had a lot of thought and
21 had a lot of deliberation and I think was very
22 comprehensively put together during that process.
23 And I guess when I read this application, my
24 First thought process was what's. different. We've
25 been out here for less than well, right at two
126
1 years, and I guess I would go back and say if we
2 felt strongly, if we felt passionately that having
3 a mixed use corridor along I-35, of .having an
4 office part, we obviously, somebody, thought that
5 that was an important consideration when the
6 Comprehensive Plan was put together.
7 And there's all kinds of discussions about,
8 you know, the economic impacts of those, and I
9 don't think that's what we're here in this forum
10 really to discuss. But I think if you go back and
11 look at this application from that perspective, has
12 something really changed? Do we have a really
13 major change in our economic development here other
14 than that we have a big project and we're looking
15 at it being skewed by the by who the project is
16 and what the scope is?
17 I think if you go back and look and think
18 that it was important to have an office/technology
19 park, one of the issues was we didn't want to have
20 a streamline, one continuous line, from Highway 46
21 to Highway 70, of just having full retail. And I
22 think that's a very relevant consideration. I
23 think it's something that goes right to the heart
24 of what this land use application is f or.
25 The second piece I wanted to address, and I
127
1 was reviewing this and.I know we've had a lot of
2 discussion about this comparison issue. to the 2
3 million square feet, and I'm not going to speak to
4 the .calculation of that, but I would .just simply
5 bring up that even Mr. Licht, in his report, which
6 I read several times, talks about that the 2
7 million .square feet as a Corporate Campus, and I
8 think he was very nice about it, said it's a fairly.
9 optimal use of the land. And I think that's being
10 very gracious.
11 I think, basically, what you have to look at,
12 what you need to get your hands around: Is this 2
13 million really a comparable a really comparable.
14 use. In my mind, I'm looking at it and saying
15 you're taking a worst-case scenario. The 2 million
16 square feet of office campus is the absolute
17 maximum you could put on that site. And then
18 comparing it something that's unknown, very
19 speculative, and you're comparing it to a very
20 specific project. If I did that, I could probably
21 make a lot of things work.
22 And I think, on the face of it, if that
23 comparison is not correct and you deem it not to be
24 correct, then I'd have to say that this application
25 has some very large shortcomings because all of the
12$
1 transportation and the traffic-related calculations
2 were based on that 2 million square feet.
3 And I think that most citizens, basically,
4 would probably challenge the fact that if you have
5 an .office campus versus a retail complex that
6 operates from 7:OO in the morning till. midnight
7 probably will have a different impact on traffic.
8 You probably don't need a lot of statistics to view
9 that. So that would be those were the two
10 technical issues .that I would like to have you
11 address and think about.
12 And I just wanted to respond to one thing Mr.
13 Licht said. I was pretty much going with the flow
14 here, but I heard him say that, basically, big box
15 stores are inevitable. And I would just say we
16 trust you folks, as well as the City Council, to be
17 the caretaker of our resources.
18 And I think the issue we're really talking
19 about here is not really one of no growth; I think.
20 it's a question of what type of growth do we want.
21 to have. And I think fora lot of people in~the
22 City of Lakeville, they look. at this and say,."This
23 really is kind of 180 degrees from where we've
24 been."
25 Our Comprehensive Plan has always had a very
129
1 different vision, and that's really what we're
2 talking about here with this vote. This vote, yes,
3 technically, it's on the merits of the land use,
4 but I think there's a lot of other things that go
5 with that.
6 So I would just ask you to please take a look
7 at it, look at all of the. ramifications. of it. And
8 I would say, in closing, that big box retail. is
9 only a reality, it's only inevitable if we allow
10- that. So thank you for your time..
11 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you..
12 Somebody steal the pen?
13 MR. JIM ONDOV: I think so.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: It's hanging over there
15 on the map.
16 MR. JIM ONDOV: Well, I want to say that
17 my name is Jim Ondov. I live right on Lake
18 Marion, on the out the outwater of Lake Marion..
19 And when I first heard about this, I was very
20 excited about it. We've been looking for a grocery
21 store, mainly. And the more I look at it, the more
22 I dislike it.
23 I've been a builder all my life. L`m retired
24 now, but I`ve been a builder and developer all my
25 life. I've tried to build with a conscience. And
130
1 I cannot see where this is being built with a
2 conscience.
3 I moved from Minneapolis to Lakeville in the
4 year that we had 97 murders. And they weren't
5 taking care of the streets.. The streets don't get
6 plowed till there's four inches of snow or more,
7 yet there's all kinds of retail in Minneapolis, but
8 the City has deteriorated to the point where it's
9 just a ghetto in many areas and gang warfare is
10 just tremendous and still 50-60 murders a year.
11 And I moved to Lakeville to get away from that.
12 I'm not saying, again, I'm against Target,
13 but I don't think Target belongs in this community.
14 Many people have. expressed the desire to have
15 specialty shops and so on. When they talked about.
16 .developing the Heritage Square area, I thought that
17 was a tremendous idea in the downtown area. That's
18 the type of development most people want here. And
19 I think 'you've heard that from almost everybody
20 here tonight.
21 If you don't agree with them, if .you don't
22 think that's what the general community wants, put
23 it up to a vote. But I think it's that big an
24 issue.
25 The issue was brought up about wages and so
131
1 on. Now, I know you don't want to hear that except
2 we don't have enough. affordable housing here, in
3 the first place, to pay for people to live in that
4 receive minimum wage and a little bit above. And
5 that area really lends itself to a low traffic,
6 business community and I think that's or
7 corporate campus.
8 Like others have said, two years ago, the
9 plan was revised and now all of a sudden, because
10 somebody comes along that's offering a lot of tax
11 money, they think it should be changed. And I
12 don't agree with that and I hope that you consider
13 all the.things that have been said here tonight.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
16 Once again, if the testimony that you provide
17 us would be something that has not already been
18 brought up, we'd very much appreciate it because we
19 have extensive discussion that needs to take place
20 after we .close the public hearing. We've got a lot
21 of stuff to talk about.
22 MR. BILL COSGRIFF: Mr. Chairman, Members
23 of the Commission and the public, my name is Bill
24 Cosgriff. I'm an attorney and I represent J. Byron
25 Watschke. If it's possible to have the camera-on
132
1 again, thank you.
2 I think .for many of you, you know Mr.
3 Watschke has been a landowner in this city for a
4 number of years. In this area up through here
5 where he's done development, that was orj.ginally
6 a good part of that was commercial. And as that
7 got developed into residential, there was lots of
8 pressure from the residents of .that area, as there
9 was more development, to drop his commercial zoning
10 that he had on that.
11 The City asked the same of him to do that,
12 and he did that, obviously at some cost to him
13 because it was commercial. He is the owner of the
14 majority of the. land that's the subject of the
15 Avalon development .and the same people who are
16 asking him to give up this commercial over here are
17 again here tonight asking him to give up his
18 commercial over .here (indicating).
19 So we want you to know that he has been
20 cooperative .with the City and the residents but
21 doesn't feel he should give it up again. Thank.
22 you.
23 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
24 MS. JOANNE MOSIER: My name is Joanne
25 Mosier and I live at 17699 Lake Oak Circle in
13.3
1 Lakeville. I realize this is not a debate but I
2 did feel compelled to come up here and say. that the
3 comment that was just made
4 CHAIR DROTNING: It's not a debate.
5 MS. JOANNE NOSIER: Okay, fine. Then I
6 will say that I was involved in the meetings with
7 Byron Watschke in the redevelopment of some of that
8 land and it was through the City's desire that much
9 of that..commercial. retail was dropped.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
11 MS. JOANNE NOSIER: I would also like to
12 say that in I was struck the other night. I was
13 working with a 9th .grade math problem with my son
14 and it was on proportion and it was on if you take
15 a sample population and you proportion that out to
16 the larger population, what it would be, and I'm
17 just struck this evening by the number of people
18 that were here that still are here at 20 to 10:00
19 at night, the number of letters, e-mails, and phone
20 calls you've gotten. If you project that out to
21 the larger population of Lakeville, you will see
22 that the City of .Lakeville is overwhelmingly
23 against this proposal.
24 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
25 MS. DONNA HEINZ: Mr. Chairman, Members
134
1 of the Committee, my name is Donna Heinz and I have
2 been a resident of Lakeville for. 15 years. Prior
3 to that, I grew up in Burnsville. And I have seen
4 both those communities change. over 35 years of my
5 life.
6 I am also a resident of 181st Street in Acorn
7 Heights. And the .only comment that I would make
8 based on some of the arguments tonight is that I'm
9 going to have to drive through this projected
10 traffic every time I leave my neighborhood.
11 But to get back to the real topic at hand
12 here, before I looked at Avalon's application for
13 this amendment and before I read the City's report,
14 I, as an architectural technician that's worked for
15 20 .years for an architectural firm in downtown
16 Minneapolis, did my own analysis of this site
17 because my father raised me to make sure that I
18 always examine the facts before I made a decision.
19 And in my own analysis, I compared the
20 current Commercial/Office Park zoning for this site
21 with the zoning that Avalon ultimately desires.
22 Actually, I found some of the figures that were
23 given in their application and in the City's
24 response to be conservative.
25 The truth of the matter is the
135
1 2-million-square-foot projection for an office park
2 on this site is not unrealistic. The only question
3 as to whether that fact is reletTant is whether or
4 not the City of Lakeville would ever require 2
5 million square feet of office space.
6 The answer tp that question may be no. But
7 the fact of the matter is: If you .don't put 2
8 million square feet of office space on that site,.
9 it cannot generate .enough revenue to pay for the
10 situ and the development of it.
11 As a neighbor to this site, it is only
12 logical that we bring a retail development into..
13 this site. The site will.either remain undeveloped
14 and produce no revenue for the City of Lakeville or
15 it will have 2 million square feet of office space
16 .and included in that will be 300 square feet of
17 retail. We'll get it one way or another.
18 And I would choose to look at a site :that has
19 been very sensitively planned, it respects the
20 environment, and it respects me as a neighbor.. .And
21 I would ask you to consider those .things in
22 choosing whether or not a Target retail center is
23 an appropriate use for this site. Thank you..
24 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you. Any
25 additional questions or comments that have not
136
1 already been brought forth?
2 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: My name is Frank
3 Holley. I live in Lakeville. And I think the key
4 to this whole development has a lot to do with 35W
5 and the fact that it is a main thoroughfare. north
6 and south.
7 A lot of the traffic that I'm sure this
8 development will receive will be even out of state,
9 even as far south as Idwa, coming north to use the
10 lakes. And it's very important for people to
11 realize that it's not exclusively designed for a
12 Lakeville. resident; it's a Lakeville/Prior
13 Lake/Credit River and all points north and .south
14 facility.
15 That will add to a considerable number of
16 traffic problems, despite the modification of the
17 freeway entrance and access. That will also add to
18 the number of .people using this kind of facility as
19 a commercial site or a retail site.
20 This will also include and add to the number
21 of security and crime issues: theft from auto,
22 theft of auto, robbery. These will all have to be
23 addressed by City taxes. Environmental concerns:
24 not to mention water but also even skyview and
25 people living anywhere near this development, if it
137
1 ever succeeds, needn't worry about streetlights.
2 They'll have those for the hours of the night
3 because of the large tower lights that will be on
4 site and will have to be lit constantly because of
5 the 24-hour business that will probably end up
6 developing with these big box stores. That's
7 generally how they're .done.
8 Archer Foods is a nonunion grocery store
9 and
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Sir?
11 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Yes.
i2 CHAIR DROTNING: Not relevant.
13 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: It's an issue as far
14 as economics.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: No, it's not relevant.
16 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: And if I've
17 CHAIR DROTNINGs It's not my intention to
18 interrupt you., but I will. We've listened for the
19 last we've given at least an hour and a half. for
20 testimony and I just got done asking that we had no
21 further redundant testimony. I've heard traffic.
22 I've heard safety. I've heard road. I've heard
23 all these different things. I haven't heard
24 anything new. .Neither has the Planning Commission.
25 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: .Okay. What about
138
1 CHAIR DROTNING: This is not a debate.
2 We have a lot of work to do. We did not put a time
3 limit on out of courtesy to the people that were
4 here, but you're not going to wear us out.
5 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Can I continue
6 speaking briefly?
7 CHAIR DROTNING: You've got about 60
8 seconds.
9 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Okay. A new time
10 limit, then, I guess.
11 CHAIR DROTNING: .Just for you.
12 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Where. are the trails
13 that have been planned for this site in conjunction
14 to the residential area west of 35W?
15 CHAIR DROTNING: That's a site plan
16 issue. It's not valid.
17 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Pardon?
18 CHAIR DROTNING: That's a site plan
19 issue. .It's not valid.
20 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Okay. So that hasn't
21 really been done .yet, .right?
22 CHAIR DROTNING: That's correct.
23 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Okay. I am in favor.
24 of the current zoning situation.
25 CHAIR DROTNING: We're aware of that.
139
1 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: And I think that the
2 City can benefit from that. They can benefit from
3 that in a retail area and also the office space in
4 that kind of a layout. And I think we can develop
5 that and succeed with something like that and Byron
6 can succeed and make a profit and the residents of
7 that. area will not have to contend with the
8 increased traffic: and the dangers thereof. Thank
9 you.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
11 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Was that a minute?
12 CHAIR DROTNING: I didn't look at my
13 watch. I cooled off. But I mean what I say.
14 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: Well, I do, too.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: We have
16 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: I do, too.
17 CHAIR DROTNING: We have this is not a
18 debate.
19 MR. FRANK HOLLEY: I'm not debating.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: We have a lot of work to
21 do yet this evening. Okay? We are absolutely
22 crystal clear that there have been traffic issues
23 that have been raised, safety issues that have been
24 raised, environmental issues that have been raised.
25 Whether or not this is a significant change in the
140
1 zoning or not, we need to discuss that and we need
2 to get to that. We don't need to hear it 19 times.
3 We've heard it and we understand it.
4 And this is not specifically directed to you,-
5 Mr. Holley. This is directed to anybody else that
6 has interest in testifying.. We have work to get
7 done, too. And we appreciate everybody being here
8 and we've received a lot of information. I've got
9 no less than seven pages of notes that I have to
10 collate and work with staff so we can work our way
11 through it.
12 So if there is any additional new testimony
13 that someone would like to offer, we're very
14 interested in hearing it.
15 MR. ROB RUTAN: It's going to be kind of
16 hard to add anything new.
17 CHAIR DROTNING: That's what L asked you
18 to do, man.
19 MR. ROB RUTAN: I'd like to ditto. :most
20 everything that's been said tonight as far as the
21 majority of the people here. .One. of the things
22 brought up being that it would be hard to get an
23 office complex in here in this site in that this
24 might be a quicker means of filling this area and
25 bringing in the. tax. revenue.
141
1 I think that you should take into
2 consideration everything, of course, that you have
3 in your Comprehensive Plan. It's a good plan,
4 especially in regards to the central area and the
5 Commons area, .the Heritage Square area.
6 One thing to consider is that we .don't have
7 to be a large a cookie cutter community, such as
8 Apple Valley and Burnsville. We have one thing
9 they don't have. and that is an airport facility•
10 which corporations and business campuses might like
11 to use as a site for where they want to locate. So
12 we do have something going for us there. Thank
13 you.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you very much.
15 MS. MARCIA APPEL: My name is Marcia
16 Appel. I live at 17733 Kingsway Path in Lakeville.
17 I'm sorry to walk in so late. I just arrived back
18 in the city.
19 I have only one thing to say tonight and it
20 is really asking you to read your Webster's
21 dictionary tonight about the word planning and also
22 to think, as you do so, about what we inspire our
23 children to do now. That is to become politically
24 involved and evolved and to also protect, for
25 future generations, both our economic wellbeing and
142
1 our land use.
2 And I ask you, in looking at this part and
3 parcel, to ask yourselves just very seriously: If
4 you had your druthers about where you would like
5 your children to work and grow and raise their
6 families and where you. would hope for them to have
7 jobs and goodness in this community, I hope that
8 you will agree that proper planning means a lot of
9 things and it includes good jobs and good care of
10 our land, and that where we see duplicity and
11 duplication of effort and a lack of originality and
12 authenticity, that you will.provide us with the
13 leadership and show us and our children a new way.
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you.
16 MR. LUKE HELLIER: How you doing?
17 CHAIR DROTNING: Good evening.
18 MR. LUKE HELLIER.: Hello. My name is
19 Luke Hellier. I'm a sophomore at Lakeville. High
20 School. I was watching on TV and couldn't help but
21 come down and make a teen voice heard.
22 For the past hour that I've been sitting
23 here, I've noticed about 95 percent of the people
24 here don't want TimberCrest to come and I also know
25 that 75 percent of my peers don't want TimberCrest
143
1 here because all it will bring is problems. And I
2 would just, like you just to take that into
3 consideration when you take a vote on this. Thank
4 you,
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Any other questions or
6 comments from the audience that is new and not
7 redundant, r-e-d-u-n-d-a-n-t, I think.
8 MR. WALLY HILGENBERG: Good evening.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: Good evening, sir.
10 MR. WALLY HILGENBERG: My name is
11 Hilgenberg and I live on 185 .[sic] Judicial Road.
12 I've been a resident there since 1976.
13 And I want to impress upon you the. fact that
14 I'm not opposed to change and I'm not opposed to
15 development but I believe in doing things in a
16 systematic and an orderly manner.. And there seems
17 to be an urgency here to move forward with this,
18 and.I don't understand that.
19 And my concern is that every .morning when I
20 go to work, I take my life in my hands when I pull
21 off of Judicial. Road onto 185th Street and drive
22 down to the freeway. And every evening when I go
23 home and go down 185th Street and have to shop as
24 all the cars are coming from Prior Lake and I watch
25 those cars roaring right at my rear end, I'm taking
144
1 my life in my hands again.
2 And Lakeville and Prior Lake and Credit River
3 is very, very aware of the fact we have a
4 tremendous traffic problem out there today. And I
5 know you don't want to talk about traffic anymore,
6 but I believe it's an issue that needs to be
7 addressed. I have no problem with change and
8 development, but it needs to be done orderly.
9 And I heard your consultant here, who's.
10 unbiased, give his report this evening. And he
11 said that in 2.005, that bridge is going to be
12 changed. Is that correct?
13 MR. LICHT: That's what I said.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: Please address your
15 comments to the Commission.
16 MR. WALLY HILGENBERG: Is that. correct,
17 2005?
18 CHAIR DROTNING: We will deal with that
19 as part of our discussion.
20 MR. WALLY HILGENBERG: Yes, sir. Well, I
21 believe that if you bring in this Target center
22 today, you're going to create more~traff.ic, you're
23 going to create additional problems, it's going to
24 be more dangerous than it's ever been on 185th
25 Street, and it's an issue that needs to be .dealt
145
1 with before you create the development of that
2 center.
3 I have. no problem with it coming in, but.. you
4 need to get that road taken care of first. And to
5 have to rush into this and create the problems that
6 you're going to create and endanger people more so
7 prior to addressing that I think is absolutely
8 incorrect. It's wrong. Thank you very much.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you. Any further
10 questions or comments before the Commission?
11 No. If you've already spoken, thank you.
12 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: That's. right. I
13 can't speak twice.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: It's not the twofer.
15 COMMISSIONER KOT: Hearing that, I move
16 to close the public hearing.
17 COMMISSIONER COMER: Second.
18 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
19 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: .Aye.
20 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
21 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Aye.
22 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
23 COMMISSIONER KOT: Aye.
24 SECRETARY BREVIG: Drotning?
25 CHAIR DROTNING: Aye.
14.6
1 SECRETARY .BREVIG: Comer?
2 COMMISSIONER COMER: Aye.
3 SECRETARY BREVIG: De~jen?
4 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: Aye.
5 SECRETARY BREVIG: Wulff?
6 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Aye.
7 (Whereupon, Motion 01.16 was .passed.)
8 CHAIR DROTNING: We need about five
9 minutes to organize some notes and then the
10 Planning Commission will now discuss the things
11 that you've been wanting us to discuss all evening.
12 We can't discuss them until we get testimony.
13 We'll take about five minutes and we will be back.
14 (A recess was taken.)
15 CHAIR DROTNING: We have our copies one
16 of our staff people was kind enough to do. My
17 notes are on about six. or seven pages and I can't
18 read them, but we do have six pages of comments
19 that-we've received tonight from the audience. And
20 we're just going to start from number one and work
21 our way through it.
22 It's also .very typical. that. the Members of
23 the Planning Commission would have questions, which
24 after we've and there's a lot of duplication.
25 The Planning Commission Members also may have
147
1 questions that have already been asked.
2 We are looking, as I say, because this is a
3 Comp .Plan proposal, and I stated earlier: We
4 aren't looking where the trees are, we aren't
5 looking at what. color the buildings are, the
6 parking lot, or that type of thing. It gets down
7 to the use, the traffic, and many of the. things
8 that were brought up.
9 The first. comment we received was pollution
10 from additional traffic and trips and hours of
11 operation. Mr. Erickson.
12 CITY ADMINISTRATOR..ERICKSON: In the
13 interest of time, .I'll try to facilitate these
14 questions, take them in the order in which they
15 appear and at your direction, Mr. Chair.
16 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you, Mr. Erickson.
17 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: The issue
18 of additional traffic trips will be addressed
19 through the permitting process through the site
20 plan review, which is a statutory requirement and
21 necessitated by law and was referenced by our
22 consultants as well as the representative. from the
23 developers.
24 So certainly, to get a permit when your
25 parking exceeds the threshold that has been
148
1 identified, then that permit, which has everything
2 to do with air pollution, would be evaluated and
3 addressed and certainly not issued by the State.
4 agency unless there is conformance.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Would that be true
6 whether it was Commercial Campus or Commercial
7 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: It would be
8 'true of any parking lot that would exceed the
9 threshold identified in the regulation.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: So regardless of how the
11 site develops, that would be addressed as part of
12 the process? '
13 ~ CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Yes, sir.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: Thank you. Hours of
15 operation.
16 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: We've heard
17 this evening a lot of different hours. We've heard
18 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. And I think that
19 that, again, is a function of what would be
20 proposed in an official manner by the .applicant.
21 The applicant, to date, has been very
22 forthright .about that. Things can always change
23 and I don't mean to stand here and predict what
24 might occur 10 or 15 years from now, but I guess
25 you do, at .some point in this process, have to take
149
1 the word of a I think a reasonably respectful
2 corporate entity named Target and believe what they
3 say with regard to their hours of operation, and I
4 know it's not 7 days a week, 24 hours a day. That
5 information comes directly from the director of
6 read estate for Target and that's Joan Ahrens. So
7 they aren't open 7/24.
8 And there's never been any proposal by this
9 group to dothat. But I think what's even more
10 important than that: There are no uses proposed
it like a motor fill station where that issue would
12 really come into .play and can surface. So we don't
13 have such a proposal currently before us for what
14 would typically be a more obvious 7-day-a-week,
15 24-hour-a-day operation.
16 CHAIR DROTNING: The next person that
17 the notes that I show: 2 million square feet of
18 office is not a fair comparison. I guess what it
19 boils down to kind of there's some question
20 about the numbers and how accurate they. are is
21 probably the from the standpoint of the
22 intensity of use on the site between. the commercial
23 campus and the proposed commercial.
24 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: .When I was
25 hired 12 years ago, I was asked, at the request of
150
1 the City Council, to take the 80 acres the .City
2 Council had previously purchased from the St. Paul
3 Companies at 70 and 35 and .turn it into a Corporate
4 Campus with 30 percent open space and we did .that
5 successfully., fully with full incentives on each
6 and every parcel, meaning that everybody got a free
7 piece of land in the process.
8 What I did learn in that process, with 30
9 percent open space, is that despite that 30 percent
10 open space requirement, you can certainly en masse
11 an appropriate amount of square footage to make
12 things cost .beneficial for the business of
13 corporation; that is, constructing a facility.
14 There was an example given tonight of
15 Heat-N-Glo, or really it's Hearth Technologies and
16 I believe they have nearly 80,000 square feet and
17 they certainly can increase .that dramatically.
18 Each site out there can just about double their
19 size, with the exception of D. R. Horton,
20 Incorporated, of course, but they can almost all
21 double their size and they about all bought out
22 there for that purpose, to expand, and that's what
23 we want them to do.
24 So I would just indicate that. I think a fair
25 comparison, from my vantage point,. based on that
1.51
1 example in Lakeville, would certainly be somewhere
2 between 1.5 and 2 million square feet. I mean,
3 it's not that difficult to achieve.
4 And I think somebody asked the question
5 earlier in the evening about does the does that
6 take into account the 30 percent green space, and
7 the answer is yes. That is the only zoning that
8 is the only zoning district that I'm aware of, Mr.
9 Licht, that has an automatic green space
10 requirement, so there are no other green space
11 requirements in the City.
12 So for a developer to respect the 30 percent
13 green space in a commercial area that doesn't
14 require it would be.unlike any other commercial
15 area in the city that has. been previously developed
16 or would be developed in the future for .which there
17 is no green-space requirement, not a single percent
18 of green. space required.
19 CHAIR DROTNING: And.I think, too, that
20 one. of theother things that whether this is
21 Target or XYZ commercial or any other major
22 commercial, is it an opportunity and we're not
23 talking about site plans and, even though Target's
24 name keeps coming up, coming up, coming up, coming
25 up, it's a land use-type thing. When we have the
•
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1 80 acres instead. of what the City ended up with, it
2 took how many years with significant incentives to
3 develop that as a Corporate Campus.
4 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Nine years.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: And that was giving away
6 the land.
7 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Free land
8 and infrastructure.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: We talked to let's
10 discuss, if we can, flooding, ..runoff from
11 impervious surfaces. It's been somewhat addressed.
12 I felt, quite frankly, addressed quite thoroughly
13 in the report. Would you discuss it again?
14 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: You leaped
15 over Mr. Chairman, you leaped over $90 million
16 .evaluation. I spent a lot of personal time on
17 that. I want everybody to know that anybody who
18 questioned that tonight, any of the statements that
19 were made, there were several statements that were
20 made that were totally inaccurate.
21 This statement has little to do with Avalon;
22 it just has to do with commercial values, period.
23 I would like to say that $90 million is very
24 accurate. Our Finance Director, Dennis Feller and
25 I went to the web, as everyone. has done tonight.
153
1 Go to the Promenade project in Eagan where
2 Byerly's is and you'll find out very quickly what
3 the cost of upscale retail commercial is. That
4 project-- portions of that project. were over $50
~5 million.
6 The thing that is so challenging: Lakeville,
7 for all business for all business concerns, is
8 the cost-of land. Let's put. it in the context of
9 10 acres where Hom Furniture is going... They paid
10 the Jackson family $2.5 million, or $5 for every
11 square foot of property, and then Hom has to pay
12 for-all the improvements, remove all the buildings
13 and then pay for all the improvements.
14 The reason I'm using that analogy is the
15 greatest. single cost on this. site and, for that
16 matter, any other commercial site in Lakeville is
17 the land and the infrastructure..
18 And by the way, commercial buildings,
19 depending on the sheer size of the buildings and
20 the unique characteristics of the building, will
21 run somewhere between $80 and $140 a square foot.
22 Target isn't $140 a square foot. The restaurants
23 will be a lot more than $140 a square foot. See,
24 you have to look at the balance. That's why going
25 to the County's web site and. looking at .Promenade
154
1 is a and I think everybody would agree that's a
2 real upscale commercial retail. Probably the
3 newest and nicest in .Dakota County.
4 CHAIR DROTNING: Pollutants.
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Well,
6 pollutants, you know, it doesn't matter what goes.
7 on the site.. Lake Marion is just truly one of our
8 gemstone resources and we have too much invested as
9 a City. Our longstanding commitment. to the lake is
10 very obvious and very clear.
11 Lake Marion's association is very dynamic and
12 very involved and would never allow anything that
13 would be inappropriate to occur. Once in a while,
14 you stub your toe and you may allow a little runoff
15 erosion that might occur from a subdivision or a
16 silt fence falls down or something, but for the
17 most part, we've made great strides in improving
18 the water quality in the lake.
19 This site, no matter if it's developed as
20 originally planned or as proposed, there will be no
21 pollutants that will ever be allowed to .come off of
22 here. Anybody who knows anything about. Lakevill e
23 knows that there will be skimmer devices.
24 And all the possible petroleum distillate
25 kinds of issues that would occur on a site like
155
1 this, and they. do occur in the community, and we
2 have these skimmer devices in a lot of locations;.
3 we skim off the petrol and make. the people remove
4 that through a mechanical means.
5 We would go to some pretty extraordinary
6 measures to make sure that everything is done..
7 according to what I think are pretty rigid
8 standards and will be viewed by the .Dakota Water,
9 Soil, and Conservation District and Dakota County,-
10 who's responsible for this watershed.
11 CHAIR DROTNING: And that would be
12 consistent with whether it be developed in a manner.
13 being proposed or any other, even if it was
14 residential or one house? i mean, if it was
15 replatted I mean,' when we do plats, we get the
16 letters from the Water Quality Management and all
17 those different things where they review all those
18 plans and that stuff is monitored all the way
19 through the process. So it's consistent whether
20 it's being developed Commercial Campus or
21 Commercial or High Density Residential or any of
22 those kind of uses, correct?
23 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Yes, sir..
24 That's why we have an environmental coordinator.
25 That's why we've been a leader in this county in a
156
l number of environmental areas. That's why we are
2 one of the very few cities in this county with an
3 Environmental Affairs Committee. That's why this
4 project or any one like it would have to go through
5 an Environmental Assessment Worksheet. So yeah,
6 it's going to go under tough scrutiny.
7 CHAIR DROTNING: If there were a if
8 some other Councilmembers, Commission Members would
9 like to jump in. You mentioned an EAW,
10 Environmental Assessment Worksheet. I know there
11 were some concerns raised about that. Maybe you
12 could walk us through the processso that
13 sometimes people want to put the cart in front of
14 the horse.. If you could just walk through the
15 it's been done several other times and people may
16 not always be privy to that. Just walk through. the
17 process of development, whether it's. Avalon or XYZ
18 office park.
19 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Okay..
20 Brett.
21 MR. BRETT WEISS: Thank you. Good
22 evening.
23 CHAIR DROTNING: Told you you'd get up
24 here eventually.
25 MR. BRETT WEISS: Yes. I'm very happy to
157
1 be here.
2 I was the one who spoke at the Environmental
3 Affairs Committee to talk about the AUAR versus the
4 EAW. This project will require an EAW, which is an
5 Environmental Assessment Worksheet, which is simply
6 a scoping document to determine whether or not an
7 Environmental Impact Statement, which is a very
8 comprehensive document, is necessary.
9 An AUAR is somewhat in-between those two and
10 tries to look at a larger area. As I mentioned at
11 the Environmental Commission meeting, it might look
12 at the whole surrounding area, 2000-acre site that
13 maybe is`all undeveloped at the time to address all
14 the environmental issues.
15 This is a very site-specific location. A lot
16 of the area is developed around the outside of it
17 and so an AUAR would not be necessary in this
18 instance. An EAW would serve the same function..
19 Essentially, what it does is it looks at all
20 of the environmental issues: traffic,.
21 transportation, stormwater runoff, wetlands,
22 wildlife impacts, air pollution. All of those
23 issues are scoped out in one document with all of
24 the applicable environmental agencies offering
25 comments on those.
158
1 Then it is put out for public comment for
2 about a 30-day period. It's noticed to everybody.
3 All of those agencies get to comment on it. It's
4 brought back to the City to address those comments
5 and determine if an Environmental Impact Statement
6 is necessary.
7 At that point, the City Council would
8 determine whether or not they wanted to move
9 forward with the EIS or if they wanted to say that '
10 an EIS is not .necessary. So it's basically a
it scoping document. An AUAR is simply a little bit
12 more intense. It's in-between the EAW and an EIS.
13 It tends to look at a larger area..
14 Savage did one recently for a two to three
15 thousand-acre area that was going to be rapidly
16 developing fore residential development so they
17 decided to look at the entire area at one time. In
18 the situation you're in, you can look very
19 specifically at this site because the rest of the
20 urea is deve3oped and accomplish that with an EAW.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: So that and that
22 would be part.of the site plan process?
23 MR. BRETT WEISS: Yes.
24 CHAIR DROTNING: Not part of the
25 Comprehensive Plan Amendment process?
159
1 MR. BRETT WEISS: That's correct.
2 CHAIR DROTNING: So it has to make it
3 beyond it has to make it through the Planning
4 Commission as far as us making a recommendation to
5 the Council, the Council has to make a
6 recommendation, it goes to Met Council, and then
7 or Council makes a request, it goes to Met. Council,
8 they review it. If it makes it through all those
9 hoops, then it comes back to the City and the
10 developer would then have the opportunity to
11 develop the site plan. That's the time that the
12 Environmental Asssessment Worksheet would be done?
13 MR. BRETT WEISS: Right.. And in either
14 instance in either instance, regardless if the
15 zoning was changed, if it were the Office Campus,
16 it would likely require that, as well. So once
17 again, it's something that doesn't have any impact
18 on this issue tonight that would be required one
19 way or .the other. So you would look at those
20 issues.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: Then after the
22 Environmental Assessment Worksheet is done, that
23 will drive whether or not the more intent Impact
24 Statement is needed?
25 MR. BRETT WEISS: That's correct.
160
1 CHAIR DROTNING: And as you said, what
2 -was requested earlier this evening is in-between
3 the two?
4 MR. BRETT WEISS: .That's correct.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Thankyou.
6 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr.
7 Chairman.
8 CHAIR DROTNING: Mr. Erickson.
9 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: You've
10 asked about flooding and I've heard a lot about
11 flooding. I've read some letters to the-editor
12 about that. If there's anything that I think we've
13 prided ourselves in this community: When our
14 neighboring communities all struggled .with the
15 Fourth of July event last year, we were. very
16 fortunate to have a storm sewer system in place
17 that could, for all practical purposes, handle that
18 deluge. It certainly impacted the northern part of
19 our community.
20 I want to be quick to point out that Lake
21 Marion has experienced flooding for over two
22 decades and some of you on the Planning Commission
23 are well aware of it. And there have been a lot of
24 measures taken to reduce that, if you will, bounce
25 in the elevation and in the level of that lake.
161
1 So a lot of the development has really
2 literally helped because we've built huge
3 retaining, retention and NRP, nutrient removal
4 ponds, throughout the system and we work very
5 closely with Lake Marion residents. They .were all
6 praying for a higher elevation this coming spring
7 and they're going to get it. The level was. down
8 and it's going to come up.
9 There's been localized flooding on that lake,
10 recorded localized flooding on that. lake for over
11 two decades. It has very little to do with storm
12 rains; it has a lot to do with the outlet that is
13 managed and controlled by the DNR. But you can
14 rest assured, as all the people who spoke tonight
15 in their own neighborhoods, we do not have flooding
16 problems in our neighborhoods.
17 The alder neighbors that did have those
18 problems, in the 12 years I've been here, I think
19 we've solved about 95 percent of those and the
20 residents can attest to that who previously
21 experienced those problems.
22 So I think flooding is a grossly overstated
23 issue and concern .and I really. don't think that
24 if you follow your Comprehensive Stormwater Plan,
25 in whatever. area of the community you'.re in,
162
1 whatever the land use is, there .should be no
2problem whatsoever in managing it.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Schools in immediate
4 area.
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: I don't
6 know. Would someone help me out? Mr. Bellows or
7 Mr. Puncochar, you're still a resource officer at
8 the high school. I think the closest school. is
9 Kenwood Trail?
10 EX-OFFICION COMMISSIONER PUNCOCHAR:
11 (Moves head up and down.)
12 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: We're
13 always concerned about schools. I think the
14 gentleman xeally meant to say not so much about the
15 schools in the immediate area but about school
16 busing.
17 The City works very closely with Schmitty &
18 Sons in the 194 District. Long before people were
19 really aware of issues on 185th, we were working
20 with Schmitty & Sons to take buses off of 185th and
21 get them into cul-de-sacs and be concerned about
22 that way beyond our own City limits, beyond the
23 City limits of Lakeville, which end at Judicial
24 Road, on theeast side of the road.
25 So we'll always have genuine concerns for
163
1 safety.. I don't think that's I don't think that
2 will be an issue that'll continue.
3 One of the things that you can see with this
4project, though, that we want to greatly or
5 significantly enhance the trail system. And as
6 these phases go along-- Mr. Hilgenberg talked
7 about that tonight. As we phase the improvements,
8 each phase will bring a safer outcome with safe
9 trails running along the road., which now are
10 nonexistent. So I don't want to belabor that.
11 I'll be glad to answer any questions about. that.
12 But I don't think we're talking so much about
13 schools as we're talking about school busing.
14 That's something that all of these
15 transportation improvements is certainly your
16 remedy in the next four years.
17 CHAIR DROTNING: I'm trying to remember.
18 We've had a lot of discussion about some busing,
19 pickups and stuff. I know when we had Oak Corner
20 .being developed. There. was concern about. the.
21 pickup, but there aren't really that many on
22 185th Street, there aren't that many stops where
23 they're actually stopping on 185th Street. Do you
24 know?
25 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Well, the
164
1 biggest concern was west of Judicial Road in Scott
2 County.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Where you've got some
4 private drives.
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR.ERICKSON: Maybe this
6 gentleman lives in Scott County. When they have to
7 say Lakeville, it doesn't mean they live in
8 Lakeville.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: As far as the Lakeville
10 portion of 185th, east of 35, that section of 185th
11 will receive more traffic regardless.
12 Comment about site plan not being noticed
13 it won't be all asphalt. That, once again, is an
14 aesthetic issue, has to do with the site plan.
15 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: I think
16 that there was a statement made. I'm certainly
17 always respectful of everything that we hear. I
18 think the criticism being lodged there was that
19 Avalon used tan on their drawing and not black.
20 The parking lot's pretty clear to me. I know where
21 it is and I know what it is. But if someone felt
22 that there was some deception there, I can respect
23 that. I don't think there was. It didn't deceive
24 any of us as the report would .indicate.
25 But what's really important on this site plan
165
1 is the future parkway section that ..would bring you
2 ultimately over to the Southfork area. And maybe
3 the biggest disservice they did to themselves was
4 not painting or using the black color for the roads
5 because then you'd get to see very clearly the road
6 .network that is prescribed by Dakota County and
7 which cannot be altered from its from the design
8 that you're seeing there.
9 They didn't select those road alignments;
10 they were told to use them. And no matter what
11 goes there, Mr. Chairman, Members of the
12 Commission, that road .line will. be solid. It has
13 to remain just the way you see it. There are no
14 substitutes for it. The wetland impacts will be
15 the same no matter who builds there. Whenever they
16 build there, the wetland impacts will be the same..
17 CHAIR DROTNING: A lot of that is
18 dictated by access fees and guidelines the County
19 has in place because that is their road.
20 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Exactly.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: Interchange. I think
22 Mr.
23 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: I've got a
24 question here. In regards to the intersection on
25 185th and 35, on a lot of e-mails, phone calls to
166
1 myself, letters sent to me, a lot of it was talking
2 about. the intersection and so, of course, I'm
3 concerned about it, as well. And a lot that I
4 heard today was asking about the funding .for this.
5 How can we even think about going forward with this
6 plan if this isn't going to happen? So I'm
7 curious; Has funding been provided yet to
8 Lakeville for this intersection change?
9 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr. Michaud
10 and Mr. Chairman, this also fits into the comments
11 by Ms. Baudhuin regarding this interchange so we
12 could kind of respond to both kind of
13 simultaneously. The question is I should have a
14 pointer and I don't have one.
15 MR. LICHT: That's the best I can do
16 (indicating).
I7 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Now, this
18 is the first phase of the--I'm pointing to Mr.
19 Michaud--Kenrick realignment. So your question is:
20 So we have is there any funding in place for
21 that? I think what we've heard tonight is a lot of
22 statements about the City and the County stepping
23 forward to fund many of these improvements.
24 We prefer not to have to do that, but you
25 haven't seen .the Metropolitan Council or Minnesota
167
1 Department of Transportation step forward very
2 aggressively, until today, when I'm proud to stand
3 before you, after working for four years
4 actually, five years, tirelessly, I'm proud to read
5 this letter to you that I have from MNDOT today.
6 "I'm writing to inform you of the decision
7 reached by MNDOT under FY-2002 Cooperative
8 Agreement Selection Committee. After considering
9 over 30 candidates, we're including the frontage
10 road known as Kenrick. We are pleased to inform
11 you that we are going to fund it." This is the
12 Minnesota Department of Transportation, signed,
13 sealed, and delivered, picked up at 2:00 o'clock
14 today, worked on for many years..
15 They're going to fund the Kenrick realignment
16 and we can proceed this year .with Dakota County and
17 do that immediately. And they're going to pay
18 one-third of the cost. What's so significant about
19 this is they. finally put us on the radar map, on
20 the radar screen. They finally found us. And
21 they're going to fund this. That's Phase I.
22 Mr. Michaud, Phase II are the ramps, and
23 they're committed, as oftoday, to have those ramps
24 in place by the fall of 2002. .And then the bridge
25 would follow thereafter.
168
1 Now, to the points that have been raised
2 tonight about phasing, there is a point that Mayor
3 Johnson. has written about in guest editorial and
4 for which he feels quite strongly. We have
5 attempted for over a decade to have all of the
6 funding for this work at these interchanges occur
7 in advance of development. That has truly been the
8 mission of this community and it has not worked and
9 it will not work until you start aggressively
10 identifying need, so it's a chicken and the egg.
11 What's better planning? I've spent ten years
12 here trying to get them funded and I've failed, as
13 the City Administrator. It isn't my personal
14 failure; it's a failure to get people to recognize.
15 the needs of a growing community. But we are
16 finally on the radar screen; we have the letter..
17 This is the. biggest thing that's happened
18 from MNDOT in this city in 12 years. They're on
19 track. We've got the money. They're in for a
20 third. .This is ..just a start. It's pretty
21 exciting.
22 So the answer to your question is: As of
23 today, we have an•approved project, we're .ready to
24 go, it's going to built this year. It was. always
25 going to be built: this year but now it's going to
169
1 be built with some MNDOT money. I think they'll be
2 there for the ramps and hopefully they'll be there
3 for the bridge. And I congratulate Elwyn
4 Tinklenberg and his entire organization for finally
5 stepping forward and saying, "Lakeville, it's your
6 turn."
7 So pleased to tell you that tonight, but
8 timing is exquisite. The question was timely, as
9 well.
10 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Mr. Chair?
11 CHAIR DROTNING: Ms. Wulff.
12 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Perhaps Mr. Erickson
13 could talk a little bit about how fixing 185th ties
14 in with fixing Highway 70 and Highway 50 because I
15 ~ know that we've talked about these for years and
16 the timing of all of that has to go together.
17 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: I'd like to
18 start with your with your indulgence, Mr. .Chair,
19 I'd like to start at the north end and go south.
20 County Road 46, I think you might have a business
21 located near there, Mr. Chairman.
22 CHAIR DROTNING: I lived through four
23 years of construction on County Road 46.
24 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSONs And
25 everybody needs to know. I can answer lots of
170
1 questions with your question if I'm allowed to take
2 a few moments that it will take to do that. This
3 is really significant so let's. start at the north
4 end of town right. here.
5 Let's go back to this exhibit, which was
6 developed by Mr. Mullenbach and Mr. Licht, a very
7 meaningful exhibit, but as all exhibits go,
8 sometimes you can use them to your advantage or
9 disadvantage, as the case may be. Tonight, they've
10 been used to the disadvantage of good planning.
11 This 20 acres was purchased by two. gentlemen:
12 Mr. Render and a gentleman who's a partner in Welsh
13 Companies. Does everybody know why it was
14 purchased? It was purchased to put a Cub on it.
15 Why isn't the Cub there after three years after
16 they paid $2 million for the land? Because Cub
17 said it was too close to their store what was put
18 in Burnsville after these gentlemen bought it for
19 Cub.
20 So first they bought it for Cub, and then Cub
21 went and bought the old Holiday store, turned it
22 into a Cub to compete with Rainbow, and then they.
23 said goodbye to these two gentlemen who have had $2
24 million invested in this property for about 4
25 years.
171.
1 No grocery store, never likely to be one, too
2 close to Burnsville. A most unfortunate situation.
3 But more importantly, Commissioner Wulff, the City
4 invested $8 million in that interchange. It was
5 needed, but more importantly, we invested it for
6 economic development purposes. It hasn't come to
7 fruition. We're still .waiting,. Lesson learned:
8 Don't always believe the grocery stores. That's
9 what I.learned.
10 Then we mover further south. Let's go to
11 Avalon. Before we get there, let's stop at Highway
12 50. Let's. talk about property that's located at
13 Argonne's Farms. There's a property owner here
14 tonight, Mr. Undesser, who's waited patiently. His
15 patience is .running out.
16 What did we tell Reliance when they came here
17 to put a grocery store in a traditional strip mall?
18 It's premature. Why is it premature? It doesn't
19 seem fair. 50 can't take the traffic. County said
20 if you try to put a strip mall there, we're going
21 to put a median from SA all the way to Southfork
22 Apartments. We're going to cut the access off
23 because it's already overburdened with traffic.
24 We determined it premature, until the 50
25 interchange is fixed. What are we doing about the
172
1 50 interchange? .I'll tell you crhat-we're doing.
2 We have Hom Furniture that's spending $10 million
3 for their new building, a low intensity use,
4 adjacent to Americinn and Cracker Barrel..
5 We're going to shut the road off to Cracker
6 Barrel this year. We're going to have a new road
7 that'll come in by Americinn, .and Hom Furniture is
8 participating in that. They donated $5.00,000 for.
9 the right-a-way to put a new road in to take the
10 traffic congestion away from the intersection.
11 And in the process, Dakota County said, "You
12 know, if you're good enough to do that, we'll put
13 $400,000 in and build the first improve the
14 first quadrant of the interchange for the future
15 improvement. That's the first improvement that we
16 will have done at 50. We're going to have to chip
17 away at that one, chip away at that one.
18 Now, to answer your question more
19 specifically, let's go to McStop. This is where
20 everybody want s. to put Target. If you're
21 interested in putting Target there, call Joan
22 Ahrens. .She's in charge. of real estate. She'll
23 tell you she's not putting. Target there.
24 One company called Ryan Companies USA already
25 attempted to put Target there.. They auctioned all
173
1 of this land oh, by the way, half of it's
2 Corporate Campus. It would require a Comprehensive
3 Plan and rezoning. Okay?
4 But what did Target say? "Hello. We're not
5 interested. Why didn't you ask us before you
6 auctioned it off for $2.58 a square foot." "Well,
7 we just thought you'd want to go there." "Well, we
8 don't want to go there." "Why don't you want to go
9 there?" "Poor access." Even when County Road. 70
10 is ultimately improved, the access isn't acceptable
11 to them. They. don't want that.
12 But we needed this road improved because
13 County Road 70 is a lifeline to the Airlake
14 Industrial Park 90 businesses, which is 4500 jobs..
15 And that County Road 70 project I'm proud to tell
16 you tonight that the work of our City Engineer,
17 Keith Nelson, and Don Theisen, our County Engineer,
18 that work is going to be designed the design for
19 that work will be underway within six weeks and
20 they're going to select a consultant. They pretty
21 well agreed on a consultant. Now they'll get that
22 project underway. That project, for the design
23 stage alone, is about between a half a million
24 dollars, anal the City and the County have said
25 .we're going to go for that.
174
1 Now, they're going to design that they're
2 going to get the design ready for that,. but they
3 can't take that bridge out by the way, that
4 two-lane bridge takes 27,000 average daily traffic
5 counts, mostly 18-wheelers that are staging to go
6 into Minneapolis with their freight each day.
7 Okay. So they we all know we have to go
8 to a five-lane bridge. That bridge cannot be taken
9 out without serious consequences for the businesses
10 in that area. The Chamber spoke tonight. They've.
11 spoken to that previously. They .have to have the
12 ramps in at 60 before they take the bridge out at
13 70. We all know that. This is a very challenging
14 intersection to design. It's going to take a lot
15 of right-a-way and a lot of new realignments.
16 I might point out that you'll notice that the
17 road that goes into the Lakeville Theater is a tad
18 bit too close to the ramp that comes off the
19 interstate. It's so close that it has to be closed
20 off and we have to move the entrance all the way
21 down to the residential property that Mr. Cooley
22 owns, which is going to have to be guided
23 commercial and rezoned because we need to move that
24 road down there to get the traffic away from the
25 interstate.
175
1 But again, I just want to tell you that the
2 70 design is underway and the good news is the 60
3 design is underway because the Dakota County
4 Commissioners decided they're going to design them
5 both at the same time. Why? They're going to_put
6 the. plans on the shelf when they get them designed
7 in hopes that we can get more leverage out of MNDOT
8 because we're ready to go.
9 When you're ready to go these days, you can
l0 get money. We're going to get ready to go. We're
11 going to get the ramps in at 60 by the fall. of
12 2002, and then we're going to take on and start.
13 working on 70 and working on that.
14 It's a very dangerous situation. It's no
15 less dangerous than 60. It's got to be dealt. with
16 and it's. being dealt with in a timely manner. So
17 now what I've told you is 60 has to precede 70, at
18 least through the ramps, and then 70 can start.
19 after. And then 50 has to be done in very small
20 pieces and that will take about a decade of pieces.
21 The sooner we can get 60 improved and 70
22 improved, simultaneously, if you will, the quicker
23 we can take pressure off of .50 and then we can get
24 50 fixed. And we've got an agreed-.upon plan. The
25 people like Fleet Farm and all the smaller
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1 businesses in that intersection, that took three
2 years, but we accomplished that mission.
3 That's not the same as putting someone under
4 a detour for three more years. And if any of you
5 have been around for any period. of time--some of
6 you have--remember the detour on 50, what that was
7 like when it was closed down for a couple of years
8 and how tough that was for businesses to survive?
9 So we have a big task ahead of us. We're up
10 for the task. There's .not enough room for any
11 large commercial uses here. There certainly isn't
12 .any here, when you realize that the movie theater
13 owns the five acres next to it and then about ten
14 acres of this is wetland. It wasn't wetland when
15 the gentleman bought it but it turned into wetland
16 after the Wetland Conservation Act because every
17 slough became a wetland.
18 So this is an impossible situation. And he
19 .was before the Environmental Affairs Committee; Mr.
20 .Cooley, that is, about three weeks ago. And when
21 we move this road from its .current. access point to
22 the far west, the first thing he has to do is go
23 through four pristine wetlands. And we don't take
24 well to that, so we're working that out. But it's
25 going to take a reguiding and a comprehensive
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1 reguiding and a rezoning to move that from
2 residential to commercial,. and that's right. around
3 ~ the. corner..
4 So stay tuned and be ready because there's
5 more of these that are going to come before you,
6 because you don't control all those factors;
7 they're beyond. your control. For the most part,
8 they're beyond our control from a staff's
9 standpoint.
10 I hope I've answered those questions. I know
11 I said a lot there. But I think if you look at the
12 questions before you tonight, we've just answered
13 about a third of them in one full swoop.
14 CHAIR DROTNING: I'd like to spend a
15 little more time on development staging and all
16 of us have lived here quite a while. Going back to
17 County Road 46 again, because when County Road 46
18 was developed, it was developed from Cedar to the
19 east over to the west over a four-year period.
20 They built the interchange.
21 If I get the order right, I wrong, I
22 apologize because, as I say, I had a business there
23 that spent three or four years without a road,
24 which is not a good way to stay. in business. It's
25 not exciting, very exciting.
178
1 And they created the they built the ramps
2 they built the frontage road and the loops, and
3 then they upgraded 46, and then they spent a year
4 trying to build and get up and go over, and then
5 they did the actual ramps themselves. There was
6 ..one year in that four-year period that the
7 businesses in that area had actual access, but for
8 four for three of the four years, they dial not.
9 And it's very difficult
10 When I first started my business, and I'm
it speaking from personal experience, which my
12 original business was taken out by the freeway
13 interchange, County Road 46 was a gravel a
14 two-lane divided no, just two-lane, and there
15 was probably 20 houses. between 35W and Cedar. And
16 it was the development and the growth around the
17 road that drove the upgrade to the road.
18 And it took the safety concerns of the area
19 to get it done, just like when they realigned the
20 frontage road over by-Lake Villa and Bracketts.
21 That would never have happened dust because
22 everybody thought it was a good idea and that's
23 where it should be; there had to be a demonstrated
24 need.. And that's, as Mr. Erickson said, is a
25 chicken or the egg thing...
179
1 Well, now County Road 46 is a four-lane road,
2 four-lane divided. It has the maybe we can just
3 take a minute and go through the traffic road
4 classifications within the community. I think
5 maybe Mr. Eyler is getting lonely over there. I
6 saw his head nodding. So would you like to show us
7 35W and then the classifications in our functional
8 system of the roads?
9 MR. DENNIS EYLER: .Good evening, or is it
10 morning,. yet. Anyway, good evening, Members of the
11 Commission and Mr. .Chairman.
12 The classifications of the roadways in the
13 Lakeville Transportation Plan, as was mentioned
14 earlier, the only principal arterial is I-35.
15 Cedar Avenue almost fulfills that same function.
16 It's just at the very high end of the high density
17 minor arterials. And along with that is County
18 Road 60 and County .Road 46 and County Road 70.
19 Those are the three. 46, 60, and 70 are the three
20 east-west high density A minor arterials. And the
21 principal purpose of 46 and. 60 is to provide some
22 relief to County Road 42.
23 And I'm not up here to lecture-the City of
24 Lakeville about transportation planning issues, but
25 part of the need down at 185th was due to the
180
1 appropriate decision based on environmental
2 concerns to not extend 46 into Scott County. So I
3 think there was a wish that some of that traffic
4 would go on to 42, but obviously, 185th was punched
5 through over in Scott County that tapped into that.
6 And as a minor arterial, the volume that a
7 roadway like thatcan carry could be anywhere in
8 the 10 to 30, 40,000-car-a-day range and,
9 typically, those roadways were upgraded to what.
10 you'd see on County Road 46, which is two lanes in
it each direction, a median. area that's wide enough to
12 accommodate left turn lanes where. they're needed,.
13 possibly shoulders, and right turn lanes at all
14 major intersections.
15 And access is limited to intersections that
16 are either signalized or will be signalized at some
17 point. The County likes to maintain a quarter mile
18 spacing. So the fact that they've agreed to the
19 spacing here at 185th and Kenrick is a little bit
20 of a stretch for them, but because of the
21 topography, the presence of the railroad and
22 everything else, they've had to deal with slightly
23 Less than optimal spacing from their standpoint,
24 but we've looked at those numbers and that's not a
25 big issue. It doesn't really matter whether it's
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1 office or retail.
2 So from the standpoint of 6O being a logical
3 a minor arterial, it's correct for spacing and
4 the one thing that stood in the way of it serving
5 its function has been the lack of the south ramps.
6 And Bob just mentioned the issue with the
7 properties in the northeast corner of County Road..
8 70 and why Target passed on that. Right now, the
9 function of the south ramps at 185 h is being
10 fulfilled by Old Highway 65, which is the service
11 drive at Kenrick Avenue.. And it's pretty
12 convenient to use the south ramps at 70 and make
13 the short jog over to the all-way stop and shoot up
14 that road.
15 The comment .about 55-mile-an-hour traffic, I
16 can guarantee you we will not be putting in curves
17 that will be capable of turning 50-mile-an-hour
18 traffic up here on the frontage. road. It will be
19 physically impossible to do that. And we don't
20 want to do that. We want to slow that traffic down
21 because we're coming into not only a residential
22 area but an area where we're going to have traffic
23 control.
24 So that utility at that roadway will be
25 greatly reduced once this street pattern down here
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1 at 70 is in place. That again is part of the
2 County spacing guidelines. They will not allow an
3 intermediate intersection between Kensington and
4 the east ramps.
5 So for somebody to develop down here, it
6 would require them to come off of 35, come up and
7 go back 'over to Kenrick. So the idea of converting.
8 that to a full interchange is logical, based on the
9 Transportation Plan.
10 And I'm not sure what the exact history is,
11 why that is only a half interchange. MNDOT really
12 very infrequently allows half interchanges to go
13 in. We went all the way back to the '68 plan and
14 .found that the proposal to upgrade that to a full
15 interchange dates all the way back to 1968 in
16 documents from townships.
17 So as far as Commissioner Michaud's comment
18 about the staging, that is obviously one of our
19 concerns our firm is charged to keep an eye on, to
20 look at the numbers, what the interchange is good
21 for,. through each of the completions above the
22 improvements, and what is going on on the site,
23 whether .it's this site or an office park, to tailor
24 the allowable phasing of the development to the.
25 available capacity at the interchange..
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1 And we've worked with the numbers, we've
2 looked at the numbers that the developer's
3 consultant has produced and feel that the trip
4 rates that were used were adequate and above some.
5 Our company's philosophy is we don't ..like to
6 get hung up on who a specific or prospective tenant
7 might be at one of the sites. We tend to go to the
8 book, look at the ITT, International Transportation.
9 Trip manual, because you can play games with those
10 numbers. You can say, "Well, we" even with an
11 office park, you can say we're going to have a
12 benign employer who's going to give every employee
13 300 square feet of space and then two weeks later,
14 he goes bankrupt because he gave away too much of
15 the store..
16 And I've been through those in Plymouth where
17 what started out as a Litton Microwave plant wound
18 up being a QVC phone bank when they were doing
19 cable marketing, and the number of employees in the
20 same building, the building didn't change, the
21 number of employees quadrupled. Three shifts a
22 day, too.
23 So there are no guarantees. We like to play
24 middle of the road and then maybe up those a little
25 bit. And. we've taken a look at the numbers and
184
l we're comfortable with the numbers. We've also
2 looked at the office numbers. And the office 2
3 million square feet., the office would generate more
4 traffic. If it's a million. and a half, definitely
5 more morning, similar in the evening to what's
6 proposed here.
7 We didn't go back and look at the million and
8 a half or 2 million square feet of office with
9 300,000 square feet of commercial. This site is
10 proposed to have 550,000 in commercial. The office
it park would have, say, 1.2 million office, but .then
12 300,000 commercial. You get 60 percent of the
13 traffic plus the office, anyway.
14 So we haven't gone in and figured out what
15 the commercial uses or retail uses would be on
16 the office part. We've just taken it as straight
17 office and said, "Okay. That's a big number and
18 it's bigger than the 500,000 square feet or the
19 550,000 square feet the retailer would produce."
20 We've been working closely with MNDOT and
21 Dakota County to make sure that what's out there
22 works as best as it can.
23 As far as the safety issues, I listened to
24 that. And, yeah, obviously, the 185th to the west
25 into Scott County is a major concern.. And the two
185
1 biggest things you can do to improve safety on this
2 roadway is to four-lane it, put in a median,- and
3 restrict the number of access points. And those
4 are all in the game plan. The full bill project
5 that's slated for 2005 or thereabouts, if the
6 funding comes through, would do that from 50 all
7 the way out to, I think, at least a half a mile
8 into Scott County. And signals would be put into
9 those intersections which are obviously needed.
10 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr.
11 Chairman, I think we could go much faster, when we
12 get to Item Number 4. Mr. Mike Schutz and L
13 wi h your indulgence, I could attempt to move
14 through that very quickly.
15 I don't think anybody here tonight, from my
16 perspective, is advocating a big box, necessarily,
17 for this location. I will tell you this. What I
18 have learned is I do feel responsible somewhat
19 responsible for not getting a grocery store at
20 Heritage Commons. I was there for the big
21 announcement and no one has tried harder--I'd like
22 to think that I tried awfully hard--to get a
23 grocery store at Heritage Commons.
24 And I can honestly tell you I learned a lot
25 of things about that. The first thing I've learned
186
1 is that we've got to get the mass in our community
2 before we're going to get a specialty grocery store
3 so my dream of a specialty grocery store in front
4 of a normal big box grocery store is really running
5 against the grain of Mr. Pazahanick from Lund's, if
6 you want to call him, Lund's, Byerly's, or Mr. or
7 Mrs. Kowalski and her daughter, which is up in
8 Woodbury. I spent many days in my office with
9 Kowalskis, or the Fleming Food people and their
10 market people out of Missouri, who I became
11 intimately familiar with.
12 What I've learned is we've just got. to wait
13 our turn, we've got to bide our time before we're
14 going to get our specialty store here. .Let me
15 assure you we will not, we will not, get a
16 specialty grocery store here until there's a larger
17 mass of shopping opportunity here. And how did we
18 learn that? We learned it from all the people I
19 just mentioned. who are experts in their field.
20 How did they learn it? Did they go to school
21 and learn that? I'll tell you how they learned it.
22 They opened a Lund's in Eden Prairie and they
23 closed a Lund's in Eden Prairie. They're not going
24 to do that again.
25 Kowalski said, "Not enough market demand
187
1 here,. yet, Bob. Three to five years down the
2 road." Where did they go? Went to Woodbury. Big
3 success. .That made us inquisitive so we invited
4 the Woodbury City Administrator of Economic
5 Development Commission and we grilled him for three
6 hours one night..
7 And he said we were never going to get an
8 upscale grocery store until we have the large
9 grocery store in place and we have the mass of
10 shopping opportunities in place because one feeds
11 the other. It's a chicken and the egg but the big
12 one has to come before the little one and you've
13 got to understand that."
14 We didn't believe that, so we asked Al
15 Madsen, the City Administrator, my counterpart in
16 Maple Grove, a city. where I spent ten years of my
17 career, and we asked A1. Al sa;d, "Byerly's came
18 after the .big boxes were put in place. First the
19 masses and then the specialties." Because they
20 make most of their money on Fourth of July,. Easter,
21 Thanksgiving, Christmas, et cetera, et cetera. You
22 all know. that,
23 So the point I want to make is Bernardis were
24 excited, everyone was excited. We .still have a
25 very nice project. We're getting the new U.S. Post
188
1 Office right here. And the only space that's left
2 are the post office's for a 55,000 square foot
3 grocery store and then Heritage Commons is filled
4 up. The end; no more.
5 That's all it was intended to be. It was
6 intended to be small specialty shops with a grocery
7 store and now a post office. instead of other
8 retail. Why are we going for the post office?
9 Same reason we went for the library: to have a
10 magnet of development. Why did we go for the
11 library with the license center first in Dakota
12 County? To bring people down here.
13 Why did we move our liquor store from where
14 it was to Heritage? Because we bought into it; we
15 believe in it. It's been very successful, I might
16 .add, for us. .Why did we close liquor store number
17 two? Because of congestion. Where did those
18 people all go? Store one and store four. Bring
19 them to Heritage Commons, get more people downtown,
20 support our downtown.
21 So everybody knows that, if they've been
22 close to this issue, and now if they didn't know
23 it, now they do know it. So we'll just bide our
24 time but our time will not come, as we are told by
25 the experts in the field, until we get a big box
189
1 retail, someplace in Lakeville.
2 We had questions about comparing Avalon to
3 the Burnsville Mall. God forbid we'd ever be
4 compared to Burnsville Mall. It's really served an
5 important regional need. I shop there myself, but
6 it's not my location of choice. It's aged.... It's
7 not what it used to be. I'm not saying things out
8 of school. I'm just saying that that's not what
9 we're intending to do and I think the primary
10 comparison there was just its size and its acreage
11 and what was there. There's no comparison between
12 the size of it to what's being proposed here.
13 I'm not going to go into detail on the
14 community survey that was referenced tonight. What.
15 I learned tonight is you can do whatever you want
16 with surveys. You get both sides. Either side
17 will use their survey results to their advantage.
18 All I would say is that I'm awfully proud of
19 being. here for over a decade and so should you and
20 so should all of you as residents because, you know
21 what, we've maintained a high quality of life
22 through a lot of change and a lot of growth and
23 that happened because we've got a really we've
24 got good political continuity, we've got good
25 advisory committee members, we've got citizens that
190
1 have believed in our cause.
2 So you know what? We've. grown from. 20,000 to
3 40,000 in ten years and people are still saying
4 they like. the small town ambiance because it's
5 still better than other communities have to
6 provide. Let's not lose sight of that. I'd like
7 to come. back here someday when we're at 60,000 and
8 have the people say the thing. I believe they
9 will.. I really believe we will they .will
10 because we do have something special going here.
11 We have tough regulations. If you don't believe
12 me, ask any developer. Ask these developers.
13 The. next one was it said substantive on
14 that page, unless you have other questions. Jobs.
15 Arlyn trussing, raise your hand; Community and
16 Economic Development Director. Hi-Tech
17 Subcommittee, Ray Gonbom. Telecommunications
18 Commission, EDC: been working on it for six
19 months. Number one priority: technology jobs in
20 Lakeville. Number one priority; number one
21 priority, and they're working on it. They're
22 taking some unique approaches to that. And they're
23 doing a survey, starting to meet with business
24 leaders of the community. It's not going to happen..
25 overnight.
191
1 But remember, we're a third-tier suburb."
2 Eden Prairie got theirs in the last decade, but
3 they're a second-tier suburb, right on the edge of
4 the first tier, and they got it in order of being
5 there at the right place at the right time.
6 And I know the former city manager there,
7 Carl Julie, and Karl and I developed Eden Prairie
8 and Maple Grove at the same time; they grew at the
9 same rate. They just happened to get the
10 .technology side of it when others didn't. But
11 Maple Grove is getting all the best retail. If you
12 want to see good retail, go lool: at Arbor Point
13 .Arbor Lakes, excuse me.
14 There was questions about there was a
15 statement read by Acorn Heights. I made a
16 statement, Mr. Chair, with Bracketts on Thursday
17 evening and I want to reiterate my statement. For
18 the sake of being misunderstood. or not fully
19 appreciated--that usually doesn't happen--I would
20 say this about that issue. I said it then and I'll
21 say it again tonight.. The number one impacted
22 neighborhood in this project is Acorn Heights, bar
23 none, and there's a million reasons for that, but
24 rest assured.
25 If anybody's got flora and fauna. to lose, if
•
192.
1 anybody's got deer to lose, if anybody's got
2 wildlife to be impacted, if anybody's going to lose
3 a fire-pit at night, which these people enjoy and.
4 appreciate, this neighborhood is number one impact.
5 Number two impact is the neighborhood to the
6 south. I'd grant that, sensitive to that. I've-
7 spent a lot of quality time listening to those
8 people over the years and their concerns.
9 Beyond that., I believe the next impacted
10 neighborhood is not a neighborhood; it's the
11 community. There isn't another neighborhood
12 impacted. after those two, not by this project.
13 It's the community is impacted .after that.
14 I don't think we should lose sight of the
15 community and I think the Lakeville residents are a
16 part of this community, an important part of this
17 community .and there at that location.. And we've
18 worked through a lot. of issues over the years with
19 that community. That's one of our really fine
20 neighborhoods. But its impacts are residual in
21 comparision to that neighborhood. and then .this
22 neighborhood. And I think we should keep .that in
23 sight here as we look at this change in the guided
24 plan.
25 Jobs: I was shocked to see the young man but
193
1 I really respected and appreciated his enthusiasm.
2 He came from home and he stood up and told you
3 several things. And I'm here to tell you that I
4 have a thousand teenagers in th's town that are
5 looking for work and they've contacted me, they've
6 contacted Avalon, .and they've said, "We want jobs
7 in this town. We want to work.°
8 And there's a huge number of teenagers coming
9 forward in this community. We have three junior
10 highs feeding into one high school, soon to feed
11 into, I believe, two high schools, and there's
l2 going to be a lot of employment desired by these
13 individuals who are now seeking that or gaining.
14 that employment outside of this community. Let's.
15 not lose sight of the young people in this
16 community who are seeking employment.
17 I can't disagree with the point that these
18 are, as they would say in real terms, meaningful
19 employment opportunities, full-time employment
20 opportunities. They don't meet that testa I'm not
21 sure that from any kind of development standpoint
22 that is the only test.
23 And if we're going to meet that test, we have
24 to capture three things: One, the educational
25 levels in this community are high; two, 71 percent
194
1 of our residents are on the Internet; three, 13
2 percent of our residents telecommute and never
3 leave their home during .the day.
4 We have to capture those people, get them off
5 the interstate and get them a job in this town, .and
6 we're working. on that. But you also have a place
7 for the 96 percent of those residents in this
8 community who don't shop here.
9 Now, how many people, the question was, will
10 shop here? 66 percent of Lakeville residents will
11 shop at this location. That's rock solid, bona
12 fide information from Target. I believe it because
13 it is a mirror image of the Lakeville Theaters'
14 same statistical analysis that they did before they
15 captured the .997,000 that went to their theater the
16 next year.
17 And they said exactly where they would come
18 from. And what's happened? With better things
19 comes impacts. Burnsville's lost two theaters;
20 other theaters are struggling. And why they are:
21 Lakeville Theater is ready to expand, .adding
22 another ultimately 12 more theaters to go to 30.
23 And Mr. Muller will tell you: Things are
24 very good here, very successful here. And look at
25 his theater in comparison to all others. It's the
195
1 nicest,-most upscale, and we take credit for that.
2 because our standards achieve that outcome, All
3 the things we want to do will achieve good outcomes
4 because that's our goal andobjective.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Let's bounce around in
6 the Commission a little bit and talk about the job
7 thing a little more. I, too, he.ve some.--.you
8 .know, you've got the head-of-household job and you
9 have people that are home during the day that would
10 like .part-time work.
11 And it would be interesting to really when
12 you go to an awful lot of stores during the day,
13 you've got people that are looking for flexible
14 hours, which oftentimes, an office doesn't provide.
15 And also, in an office and I don't have the
16 number, but, you know, every single .job in an
17 office building isn't a head-of-household job.
18 And I don't know those percentages. I don't
19 know who knows those percentages. But to make some
20 of these broad assumptions that everybody that
21 works at Target qualifies for food stamps and
22 everybody that sits in an office is head of
23 household and can afford to live in a $300,000
24 house, you know, there's such a broad disparity
25 between the two and the true answer has to be
196
1 someplace in the middle.
2 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Mr. Chair?
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Wulff, bail
4 me out.
5 COMMISSIONER WULFF: I don't think that
6 the wage question is a relevant thing for this
7 forum. You hear all the time. about Minneapolis and
8 St. Paul doing it, but that's because they pay
9 everybody to build a business there and so they
10 make their little rules about how much they have to
11 pay their workers and then they talk about it in
12 the newspaper and everything.
13 We're not paying Target to come here and we
14 :don't ask any other business. We didn't ask
15 Heat-N-Glo or any other business how much they were
16 going to pay their workers. That's their .own
17 private business decision and they don't have to
18 tell us and it's none of our business and it has no
19 relevance to this question.
20 CHAIR DROTNING: Do we have a consensus
21 on that with the group?
22 (Affirmative responses.)
23 CHAIR DROTNING: We actually. made one
24 decision tonight. Whether they're head of
25 household jobs, office jobs, jobs are jobs. and
197
1 they're not relevant to this proposal in the view
2 of the Planning Commission. Would that be
3 reasonably accurate?
4 (Affirmative responses.)
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr.
6 Chairman, the only other question that needs to be
7 addressed is page entitled number l0, the only one
8 on the whole page that hasn't been addressed. The
9 .AUAR, Brett, you've addressed that at the EAC and
10 again this evening, but I'd like to address it
11 because before we had met and before you were hired
12 to represent the City on this team, I brought up
13 AUAR to this group in .December.
14 And the reason I brought it up is because 2
15 have read extensively about it and learned a lot
16 about it from a process that Apple Valley went
17 through, had gone through, with regard to their
18 gravel mining area, Mr. Chairman, And L also read
19 about it in Rosemount where Scherer Brothers Lumber
20 was doing a large PUD.
21 But in each instance, they were taking a
22 large amount of land that: was being transitioned
23 from a totally different use to another use but for
24 which there was-very little comprehensive planning
25 in place. So the one thing Brett did mention I
198
1 agreed with everything Brett said, but I would like
2 to reiterate that because of our comprehensive
3 planning: storm, sanitary, water main, parks, open
4 space, that also plays into this.
5 And sometimes an AUAR enables the City to
6 evolve and look at those things in more detail.
7 And we have all those details because we spent a
8 million dollars on comprehensive plans and really
9 don't need that in this situation.
10 On page 14, Mr. Chairman
11 CHAIR DROTNING: Can I make one more
12 comment, seeings you brought up Apple Valley
13 Gravel? I'm referring specifically to the north
14 pit that as part of the County Road 42 Task
15 Force, as that north pit has been developed with
16 the Menard's and the Koh1s and all the other
17 things,. it is a TIF site; it bar..ks up to
18 residential; it's adjacent to two major arterials.
• 19 That designation may not be correct. It's on 42.
20 That was developed in spite of the traffic
21 issues with TIF funds. And every time I go to do
22 some banking in Apple Valley, I'm waiting for the
23 office building to fill up because the parking
24 lot's been empty for a long time. It's right
25 across from the courthouse.
199
1 I'm trying to figure who's going to go in the
2 office building. Why is it vacant so .long? That's
3 got to cost a lot of money to have that empty
4 office building sitting there, and it's still
5 sitting and it's been done a long time.
6 What else we got, kids?
7 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: The one
8 item on page 14, Mr. Chairman. The only comment I
9 have there is a reference to crime. We've had the
10 police chief with us this evening; Officer
11 Puncochar, who's are school resource officer,
12 former DARE officer.
13 I would like to say this about crime. You
14 can read this survey and what you need to know is
15 that of all the 40 cities that survey them, their
16 community residents each year, Lakeville, under
17 current leadership of Chief of Police Dave Martens,
18 who's been with us five years, has been able to
19 maintain maintain a very effective rating, the
20 number one safe and secure rating of any city, of
21 any city, in the entire region. And that doesn't
22 come by accident.
23 And what's the rating? Safe and secure means
24 walking. alone at night. Do you feel safe walking
25 alone at night with the highest rating of any
200
1 community? And that's despite that's been
2 perpetuated for year after year after year. That's
3 despite all of the change and the growth we've
4 experienced. Not just, Mr. Chairman, in population
5 but I'm talking in types of land use development..
6 In spite of all of that change, we've still
7 been able to maintain that. We must be doing
8 something right. L submit it's in large part due
9 to the police department, leadership, and the
10 things that they do right. But it's also about. our
11 community and .the strength of our neighborhoods and
12 thecohesiveness of neighbor to neighbor, and
13 students and schools under Jim Puncochar's
14 overnight.
15 We must be doing things right. So I'm not
16 going to be: The sky is falling. I'm not going to
17 tell you the sky is falling here. It can't,
18 because it hasn't fallen for a decade and it's
19 going to have to take some dramatic change, I
20 believe, in the-way we do things to see that
21 happen.
22 Will there be more need for police services?
23 We haves policeprofessional here. and a chief
24 deputy of this County. Yeah, there's"going to be
25 more shoplifting. There's going to be more bad
2Ol
1 checks, but, you know what, there are going to be
2 • more bad checks someplace in the community and
3 there's going to-be more problems in the way of
4 shoplifting as we expand our retail, commercial
5 retail.
6 Will it be disproportionate? Someone
7 referenced a gang tonight or some gang activity
8 when he went to a grocery store in another
9 community. We had an unfortunate incident
10 involving some type of a gang-wannabe-related..
11 activity in Antlers Park, tragic, and there's a lot
12 of people being processed in the judicial system
13 for that today.
14 No one is immune from that, but I would hope
15 that no one here. would start to imply that the safe
16 and secure aspect of this community is going to
17 decline. I like to think that we're going to rise
18 to the occasion.
19 Trust me. If I said to the Police Chief, Mr.
20 Chairman, and other Members here, that I'm going to
21 give him $600,000 more a year off this from the
22 taxes from this one project, boy, I'll tell you,
23 he'll jump for joy. $600,0.00 just from one project
24 in his budget, he isn't going"to have a need for
25 600 more thousand dollars to deal with those.
202
1 issues, but.. there will be more issues for him to
2 deal with, as there is with every new resident that
3 moves into Lakeville.
4 You still maintain a very safe and secure
5 high rating. I don't think we should ever lose
6 sight of that. It's something to be very proud of.
7 I'm on page 20, or page entitled 20.
8 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Mr. Chair, I have
9 some questions.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Mr. Bellows.
it COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: I understand
12 there's some time lines. What would be the time
13 line for the phase development of this project? So
14 as we go through this, how does it tie to what
15 we're doing with the roadways because I think
16 that's an important fact as to how we progress
17 there.
18 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Maybe it's
19 important that I tell you what I think it is and
20 then someone can respond if I'm wrong. It's
21 important that I do that so at least I can portray '
22 to you what I think they've been saying.
23 I think what they've been saying is they need
24 to be in the ground and doing grading this summer
25 and then they need to be open by the fall of 2002,.
203.
1 which would coincide t o the ramp-installation..
2 That's Phase I.
3 Have we defined what Phase I is, Mr. Bellows,
4 in the context of square footage and types of uses?
5 No, we have not. I can tell you a bold statement
6 I've made to Avalon and that is: Don't think for
7 one minute you're going to dump two big boxes in
8 here, and we're not going to gitTe what residents
9 are clamoring for, which is restaurants,
10 restaurants, restaurants, and other .related
11 specialty shops.
12 And they haven't they haven't said they
13 wouldn't meet those objectives. We have to work
14 through those details. So the bottom line is a
15 two-phase process, somewhere, in my opinion, around
16 220,000 square feet for each phase, and.Target
17 wants-to be in the first phase. That's my
18 understanding of the project. Is that accurate?
19 (Affirmative responses.)
2D CHAIR DROTNING; That also helps to
21 address the confusion on the square footage. It's
22 550,000 proposed total when fully developed because
23 I think that's kind of dropped from the screen
24 here. The proposal is 550,000 when it's fully
25 developed, phased, with the first phase and
204
l approximately timed when. the ramps are complete,
2 - which would include major retail, grocery and, if
3 we beat them up enough and show them we're hungry
4 enough, some restaurants?
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Yes, sir.
6 CHAIR DROTNING: The second phase, which
7 would be I'll refer to it as the easterly phase,
8 whatever. Look at the top. It's to the right.
9 Northeasterly phase would be potential for like a
10 home store, a Home Depot or other once again
11 maybe Mr. Sellergren has it. You haven't gotten to
12 talk for a long time.. You took up exactly, I
13 think, like 22 minutes in a very clear and precise
14 presentation. You've been hiding ever since.
15 We're going to make you talk.
16 MR. DAVE SELLERGREN: The only comment I
17 would make is that we don't know exactly the mix,.
18 but I can assure you that it will not exceed the
19 capacity of the transportation system to handle it.
20 We'd be delighted if we deliver a handful of
21 restaurants in the first phase. We don't know what
22 those would be.
23 Our objective and our commitment and we know
24 what the City will insist on is that there will be
25 no more development in that first phase than the
205
1 traffic system can handle, period.
2 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Under any
3 circumstances, would you have both entrance/exits
4 that are on the plan developed during the first
5 phase?
6 MR. SELLERGREN: I believe that is the
7 plan. They. will both go in at the same time so
8 there are choices for the ingress and egress
9 points.
10 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: One of the
it things that wasn't said tonight Mr. Licht did an
12 exquisite job covering a real. significant span of
13 issues and important materials. I would like Mr.
14 Eyler, Mr. Chairman, o come back up and address a
15 point here just a second. Before he does that, I
16 will address two issues.
17 I've heard a lot about impact from lighting.
18 And as we have told many residents, the best way to
19 judge our lighting standard is go to the
20 intersection of 185th and Highway 50, look at the
21 new medical --Frank Lloyd Wright design medical.
22 buildings and you decide if you think our lighting
23 standard is appropriate to protect the interests of
24 this community from the pollution that comes from
25 overlighting and you look at the or you look at
. 206
1 the lighting as it hits the property .line from that.
2 project and you judge for yourself a rhetorical
3 point: You judge for yourself if you think our
4 lighting standards are tough.
5 They are the toughest of any city in the
6 region. We're proud of that. And this developer
7 is well aware of that. And they knew that right
8 up-front because that's one of the first things I
9 told them. "You know what our light standards
10 are." I said, "Don't look for the big glare here
11 because we're not into big glare here." And I'm
12 proud of the lighting standard that you set as a
13 Planning Commission. Go look at that corner,
14 please, and you can judge for yourself. That's our
15 ,lighting standard.
16 The last thing that was said tonight, I would
17 apologize to both I think it was Mr. the law
18 firm representing Mr. Watschke end then Joanne
19 Mosier. A little contentious exchange there.
20 Sorry about that. There's no question the
21 neighborhood put immense pressure on me to make
22 to negotiate that deal. Make no mistake about it.
23 Immense pressure on me to do that, bar none.
24 I.look back on it today. It was the right
25 thing to do. The sad part of it is the developer
207
1 wanted to save that for leverage in the future on
2 something more meaningful than 18 townhomes and I
3 .would not relent to that. .That's the straight
4 information.
5 I did it. I'm responsible. I think it was
6 ultimately the right thing to do, but it was from
7 immense pressure from this neighborhood,
8 unrelenting, and it was the impetus for the
9 decision. Make no mistake about it.
10 I'd like Mr. Eyler to come up-and explain a
11 very important point tonight that has not been
12 touched. It's an oversight, not by design. Please
13 come up and explain what's going to happen with
14 Orchard Trail and the railroad crossing. This is a
15 very important issue.
16 MR. DENNIS EYLER: As part of an earlier
17 agreement between what is now the CP Rail system,
18 at that time, and maybe MN&S, but Soo Line,.
19 .certainly, when 185th was punched through from
20 County Road 50--Orchard Trail was the old lineup
21 for that connection--the City agreed to close the
22 railroad crossing at Orchard Trail which I think
23 this shows it better, which"is right here
24 (indicating) .
25 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ER~CKSON: Tell them
208
1 to zoom in on that. Just say, "Zoom in."
2 MR DENNIS EYLER: This existing crossing
3 here, as part of the negotiations to get this
4 crossing in, once the the agreement with the
5 railroad was: Once the north/south roadways. were
6 developed in this area and this I believe this
7 parcel is scheduled for development. Once that's
8 all triggered, this crossing .would be closed.
9 And what that means is that the risk of
10 traffic from this proposed development deciding to
11 cut through this neighborhood as a shortcut to
12 avoid any possible congest-ion that could occur at
13 the 50 and 60 intersection, that risk is avoided..
14 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Absolutely.
15 That's it. Thanks, Denny. Critical important
16 issue, Mr. Chair and Members of .the Planning
17 Commission, because we will not allow cut-through
18 traffic. We want to protect the sanctity of that
19 neighborhood.
20 And I'm also pleased to inform you this
21 evening that_as of today, the developer of this
22 property right here was successful in buying that
23 corner and will redevelop it and tear down the old
24 house and old shed and we'll have a wonderful new
25 environment there, which will make the neighborhood
209
1 very happy; very, very, happy.
2 CHAIR DROTNING: Tex Ram's [sic].
3 property?
4 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Tex Brooks'
5 property.
6 CHAIR DROTNING: I was close.
7 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: I'd be glad
8 to answer any of your questions. We've been
9 through and answered 90 percent of the questions
10 raised at tonight's meeting.
11 CHAIR DROTNING: I think what I'd like to
12 do is take another-one of my patented breaks. It
13 will be a brief one. And we have the review
14 analysis, the six items that were suggested in~the
15 plan that we could work our way through and we can
16 have our Planning Commission discussion about
17 really, bottom line gets down to: Is this a
18 significant change by changing the Comp Plan? Are
19 the transportation safety issues going to be
20 significantly addressed? And then work through
21 those six items. If someone else has another
22 suggestion, that's what I would propose. 35 after,
23 we're going to sit down and get done.
24 (A recess was taken.)
25 CHAIR DROTNING: We .can come to order,
210
1 please. Oftentimes, what we'll do now at this
2 point in time is just kind of do a round robin of
3 the Planning Commission and I think we'll start. I
4 have a note in front of me from the other Planning
5 Commissioner that says, "Start at Commissioner
6 Wulff's end."
7 COMMISSIONER WULFF: I wasn't the one who
8 wrote the note.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: It's a pretty safe bet
10 that you weren't.
11 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Thank you, Mr.
12 Chair.
13 CHAIR DROTNING: We have. the outline that
14 was proposed and we've had significant information
15 presented. I think we'll just go for comments and
16 see what we can do.
17 COMMISSIONER WULFF; Well, the questions
18 have been asked and answered so elaborately so far
19 tonight that all of my questions have been
20 answered.- My biggest concern, when I saw this plan
21 originally, was, "Okay. What if The Avalon Group
22 goes away and we're stuck with this big piece of
23 commercial property," because that does happen.
24 But I think if we go with the recommendation
25 in the report where we put some sort of easement or
. 211
1 conditions on the natural areas of the parcel, that
2 whoever goes there would have to do a high quality
3 development. So I guess I'm kind of past questions
4 at this point.
5 CHAIR DROTNING: Next victim. I .get
6 punchy after 10 o'clock.
7 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: My concern goes
8 back to the Acorn Heights and I just. have a
9 question about that that I'd like to have somebody
10 address. On the re-routing of Kenrick through the
it proposed development area, that's going to be their
12 new means of ingress and .egress and the road that
13 goes out to the existing Kenrick now is going to
14 cul-de-sac.
15 My question is: How long are they going to
16 be limited, let's say, to that routing until the
17 proposed northern route that would ultimately
18 connect up with 50? Because I do tend to agree:
19 They .are the highliest impact group, in my opinion,
20 as well,, and I'd just like to know that for my own
21 information.
22 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Okay. The
23 reason I'm going to respond, Mr. Chairman, is no
24 because I'm an engineer but because I've had the
25 closest working relationship from the City with
212
1 this neighborhood. We need the overhead. Let's
2 just walk through it very quickly.
3 Currently, the road is proposed-to stop at
4 this location, but, in fact, thorough a
5 collaborative process between the developer and
6 this neighborhood, what is being proposed right
7 now, Mr. Detjen, is that two of the four lanes, two
8 of the four-lane parkway would be built in the
9 initial phase to bring just two lanes of traffic,
10 two lanes of access, ingress and egress,.. to this
11 neighborhood on the east side, on the east side of
12 this subdivision. So there'd be just two lanes,
13 Dale, initially.
14 And that's just fine with the residents
15 because that's kind of a good way for them to
16 transition if it were to occur from what they're
17 used to, which is a service drive along the
18 interstate, seldom used by anyone and rarely
19 bringing people to their neighborhood. And they're
20 protective of their neighborhood and they're pretty.
21 cohesive as a neighborhood. So it .would be
22 two-lane that would be brought to their doorstep,
23 initially. Four lanes could occur at another time.
24 Let's work our way, then and you don't see
25 a design for this, but let's work our way, then,
213
1 back up to 176th Street here. Mr. Nelson, Keith
2 Nelson, City Engineer, was successful, through
3 Council direction, to get a permit to put in a
4 crossing.
5 So if you were to go there today and look,
6 the rubber crossing is in place at that location.
7 because we thought we should get that in place in
8 advance ofthe need. And so the piece of the
9 puzzle, then, that remains is between the railroad.
10 crossing at this location and 181st Street
11 neighborhood and that would come at a subsequent
12 time,. subsequent time.
13 A person who asked me about that was Mr. Tim
14 Peterson of Snyder Drug, who is supportive of this...
15 project, who owns the Southfork Shopping Center.
16 He's out of town this evening, but he's out of
17 the state, but he was hoping that we would build.'
18 that sooner.
19 But in reality, if you listen to what I said
20 earlier about the premature nature of the Reliance
21 project along 50, you really can't, Members of the
22 Commission, bring the road through yet because you
23 just would be literally bringing traffic back into
24 the very bottleneck that doesn't work.
25 So we can't go there yet and we need to make
214
1 more improvements incrementally at 50 and we need
2 to get the ramps in at 60 and we need to replace
3 .the bridge at 70. So that road, ideally, should
4 not be brought from this location to that location
5 until a series of .those improvements occur,.. which.
6 would probably be in the next four years.
7 CHAIR DROTNING: Mr. Comer.
8 COMMISSIONER COMER: I'm all set. I'm
9 ready to vote.
10 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Kot.
11 COMMISSIONER KOT: I think all my
12 questions have been answered at this time.
13 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Bellows.
14 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: All of my
15 questions also have been answered and I've asked
16 the ones that weren't.
17 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Michaud.
18 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Ditto.
19 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Puncochar.
20 EX-OFFICIO COMMISSIONER PUNCOCHAR: Same.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: We've got the in t he
22 review analysis on page 5, we've got Items 1
23 through 6. And Item 1 states: The proposed
24 amendment is consistent with the policies and
25 provisions of the Comprehensive Plan; Item 2 is the
215
l proposed use is 'or will be compatible with present
2 and future land uses of the area; Item 3 is
3 adequate capacity exists for stormwater drainage,
4 water supply, waste disposal waste disposal
5 systems to support the proposed land use; Item 4 is
6 streets and highways have adequate capacity to
7 serve the proposed use, the proposed use will not
8 negatively impact environmentally sensitive areas,
9 the proposed use will not overburden the City's
10 public service capabilities.°
11 Starting from the bottom, I think it's very
12 clear to the Planning Commission that number 6 is
13 not a problem.
14 (Affirmative responses . )
15 CHAIR DROTNING: The environmental impact
16 is part of the site plan process and the change, I
17 think, in use has not been demonstrated to be any
18 different than what our report has essentially
19 said. Because of all the protections in place as
20 part of the development process, whether it's
21 Commercial Campus or Commercial, that that would
22 not be an issue, unless there's a Commissioner that
23 feels differently.
24 (No response.)
25 CHAIR DROTNING: °Streets and highways
216
1 have adequate capacity to serve the proposed use."
2 The proposal we have before us is for a staged
3 development plan that's tied into frontage road
4 improvements that have been authorized by the
5 Council and that funding is in place for and my
6 Transportation Plan, if I read it correctly, they
7 were in the Capital Improvement Plan for 2001, the
8 1999 to 2003 CIP, they were in there, as far as the
9 frontage road alignments. The County and City have
10 committed to adding the ramps at this point in
11 time.
12 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr.
13 Chairman, that's also in both the Dakota .County and
14 City of Lakeville CIP for .the ramps, as well.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: So that's there. And
16 that's the concern at this time. We discussed and
17 have extensive .information from the traffic
18 engineer about the corrections that everybody
19 acknowledges even at this time and. adjustments that
20 need to be made west of 35W. And that's quite
21 frankly, that traffic will continue to grow,
22 regardless of what happens on this site.
23 Adequate capacity exists for stormwater
24 drainage,. water supply, waste disposal. systems to
25 support the proposed land use. That, once again,
217
1 is a site plan issue and the capacity does exist.
2 I doubt that we're going to end up doing what
3 they're doing around Lake Nokomis right now.
4 We're going to tear up and create ponds
5 around the lake so we aren't draining like..
6 Minneapolis. They're trying to improve the water
7 quality. I drove down there the other day and
8 they're chopping everything up so they can put NRP
9 ponds in because they didn't do any when they built
10 Minneapolis.
11 The proposed land use is or will be
12 compatible with present and future land uses of the
13 urea. As part of our Comprehensive. Plan review and
14 Zoning Ordinance, we had extensive discussions with
15 when is an appropriate buffer for a change in use.
16 And a component of that was a road, that that was
17 an adequate buffer. And the proposal, while we do
18 not have the site plan in front of us, we have
19 control over that through the platting site plan
20 process to ensure that not only will the road be a
21 normal barrier but then some of the other natural
22 site amenities that the developer has discussed and
23 that are obvious that are there, the natural
24 buffers that are there and some other ones they're
25 going to have to make, that there can be adequate
218
1 buffers, not only to, as we've already discussed,
2 to the Acorn Heights, to the high density
3 residential that's going into the northeast, and to
4 the highway.
5 It'11 have fairly significant visibility from
6 the freeway, even as the natural terrain is now,
7 but it will be somewhat more or somewhat less
. 8 .visible,. significantly less visible than .most
9 retail developments of this site.
10 "And .the proposed amendments consistent with
11 the policies and provisions of the Comprehensive
12 Plan." From my view and I'm not sure how .fresh
13 this zoning map is. I must have 15 of these from
14 them, from working through the Comprehensive Plan.
15 The Commercial Campus, as .part of our
16 Comprehensive Plan, was a new, essentially,.
17 district. It was a new name. We didn't really
18 have it before. We had kind of a bunch of things
19 and we created several districts and we had to
20 create zoning ordinances in place for those.
21 When we look at what used to be called the
22 35W corridor, which was originally designated heavy
23 .commercial and industrial all the way through
24 there, there was a comment .made earlier this
25 evening that they didn't want to see solid
219
1 commercial going all the way through. Well, we
2 have. some.-- both amenities and barriers to that to
3 happen.
4 We have Lake Marion on two sides of 35W, if'
5 .you. look at the quadrant of County Road 60 and 35W.
6 We have proposed, which we have some preliminary
7 .plans and zoning is there for most of it, for some
8 medium density residential on the northwest
9 quadrant.
10 We have essentially unsewered parcels on the
11 southwest quadrant that have the lake as a barrier.
12 ~ On the southeast quadrant with the realigned
13 frontage road, we have the .lake in there; we have
14 some single-family residential; we have some
15 townhomes.
16 Townhomes and medium .density are as part
17 of our planning process are things that we tend to
18 stage and we put the higher densi y homes .closer to
19 the higher traffic areas. That's normal.. But if
20 you really look at our zoning map and what retail
21 opportunities we have available, when we got done
22 doing the Comprehensive Plan, the thing that I was
23 the least comfortable with was the lack of .retail
24 commercial opportunities based on the size of the.
25 lots and the locations, the shore land-ovexlay
220
1 district, -the environmental. things.
2 Quite frankly, as we look at this area and
3 the comment that I made previously when Avalon
4 Group came in and did an overview for us at a
5 previous meeting was, "Can you build a better
6 mousetrap?" And I think there Commissioner
7 Wulff has alluded to, and I support it strongly,
8 .that if we can maintain a very high level of
9 pervious surface, a lot of green stuff, a lot of
10 berms, a lot of barriers, and be .very, very
11 conscious and utilize the amenities of the site,.
12 the natural ones that are there as a resource as
13 opposed to being something-that has to be
14 significantly changed, that we can build a better
15 mousetrap here.
16 When we look at other potential locations for
17 the site, I think we kind of talked that to death
18 and, you know, if you really realistically look at
19 what's available in this"area, there really isn't
20 anything that's appropriate that has the
21 infrastructure proposed or in place to service it.
22 We have another large component of our 38 square
23 .miles that's outside of MUSA, which, until the year
24 2020--correct me if I'm wrong--it doesn't come in
25 till then.
221
1 So we really have very limited opportunities.
2 And I think part of the discussion tonight is it's
3 about opportunities. An awful iot of the things
4 that were raised tonight, as far as environmental
5 and traffic and those kind of things, if someone
6 were coming in to develop this as a very high
7 intense office use as part of the site plan
8 process, we would be going through this same type
9 of discussion and try and find the best way to
10 mitigate the impacts on community.
11 However, when I moved here in 1979, I drove
12 out 35W. And my wife and I brought .our. family out
13 here and we'd come and looked at the new house we
14 hadn't seen yet. We wanted to move to the other
15 side of the Great Divide. We exited on what was
16 called Minnreg Roadand Orchard Trail.
17 You exited on Minnreg Road. If you went to
18 the right, it happened to have tar on it. And
19 there was a golf course over there someplace, but
20 not much else; a few horses and a few other things..
21 We went to the left and went under the bridge. If
22 there were gravel trucks coming down the frontage
23 road and they didn't stop and you didn't stop, you
24 took your life in your hands then because they were
25 ..still mining out of the gravel pit there.
222
1 Then it became gravel after you got across
2 old 65, and it veered to the right because it
3 didn't go through. 185th Street, which now is
4 County Road 60, didn't exist in that. component at
5 that time. Then you went down the gravel road,
6 crossed the. railroad tracks, went up the hill to
7 Jordan Trail, turned right and went down about
8 three blocks.
9 And that was that area in Lakeville, there
10 were no houses to the left and there was very
11 little on Highway 50. If you came in from the
12 other way on Highway 50, there was what ultimately
13 became the End Zone Restaurant, which is now Burger
14 King, which before that I think was a
15 not-too-functional Country Kitchen.
16 You pick that whole area of Highway 50 and
17 that's becoming I guess what we were we're
18 working very hard to do .things for downtown. I
19asked for the number the other day and in the last
20 ten years, the City of Lakeville has invested, I
21 believe it was $15 million in infrastructure,.
22 roads, various-different contributions. We're
23 working with the development agencies to try and
24 strengthen downtown. And downtown will find its
25 time.
•
223
1 The commercial entities downtown will have to
2 reidentify themselves and when we talked there
3 were some very good comments made this evening
4 about specialty shops and finding. their niche.
5 Downtown used to have Gephart's Furniture, replaced
6 by Schneiderman's. There's no longer .either. It's
7 mixed office, a little bit of everything.
8 Enggrem's is there. Erickson Drug is there.
9 Erickson Drug has been downtown for 38 years.
10 But when Southfork was built and~Snyder Drugs
11 was built, we didn't use "Well, we already have
12 a drug store in town. We don't need another one."
13 I'm sure the people and now I live over off of
14 175th Street,. not far away from this. project and
15 probably not much farther away than many of the
16 people that testified tonight.
17 But we never heard any comments that
18 Southfork is a bad thing because we already have
19 Erickson Drugs downtown. And that's one of the
2A challenges of living in a growth community, and we
21 have a growth community. We've got are we at 44
22 yet? And the sign on the freeway said 10,000
23 people. This is by the base of the 1970 census. I
24 think we had about 14,000 when I moved here in
25 1979.
224
1 So the challenge we have as Planning
2 Commission Members is trying to manage and direct
3 that growth for the long-term benefit of the entire
4 community.
5 And I grew up in south Minneapolis and spent
6 a lot of time in Richfield and Bloomington and that
7 type of thing and we do not want to be another big
8 Richfield. Richfield was mentioned earlier
9 tonight. When Richfield was developed, they had
10 Hub and they had 66th and Nicollet, and they had
11 another area on 66th and Lyndale. And they drove
12 commercial out of their city. They spent umpteen
13 years they built houses so fast and put the
14 streets in so fast that they never had commercial.
15 And if you drive down 494 ten year s.. ago. and
16 you looked to the south in Bloomington, where were
17 the hotels? Where was all the tax base.? Then you
18 looked to your left and what did you see in
19 Richfield? Nada. So what has Richfield had to do
20 in the last ten years? Redevelop their entire 494
21 freeway corridor as a huge, huge expense and they
22 have a huge, huge transportation problem.
23 And they haven't, in my view--I shouldn't
24 slam them--done it right because them pushing so
25 hard to try and save their city's tax base, now
225
1 there's no room to expand 494 without stacking up
2 about four levels of ramps because whatever land
3 was available there has since been used up by
4 office buildings jammed up tight to the freeway.
5 So I've wrestled .with this proposal a lot but
6 probably in maybe a more positive tone because I've
7 seen 21 years of development in Lakeville. My
8 children live here, graduated from here, and I've
9 seen a lot. of changes. .And the changes have been
10 for the better..
11 And I believe we are building a better
12 community and we have to provide full services
13 .within our communities. And when we have an
14 opportunity to do that and -it's not a significant
15 change, I think we should take that opportunity. to
16 do it. Any other comments from the Commissioners?
17 COMMISSIONER WULFF: I have some
18 comments, Mr. Chair.
19 CHAIR DROTNING: Go for it.
20 COMMISSIONER WULFF: First of all, I
21 wanted to talk about the Comprehensive Plan update
22 process that we went through because there was a
23 lot of discussion about that, that original
24 Business Campus designation that we gave was a
25 .magical thing that was never going to change.
226
1 When I started on the Planning Commission, we
2 did Comprehensive Plan updates virtually every
3 meeting that we had and we strung everybody along
4 all the way to the rezoning and the platting. We'd
5 do the Comp Plan update and the whole thing all at
6 one time. It was kind of nice for the Planning
7 Commission because it gave us a lot of control over
8 plats .that we would not normally. have had.
9 And I can understand why the applicant here
10 wants to do .the Comp Plan first to make sure they
11 can actually do what.. they're. trying to do before
12 they put all the money into designing this.
13 But as we were making the designation far
14 this property, Mr. Watschke, I believe, asked us to
15 make at least a portion of that Commercial, at that
16 time, and our position was that, no, we were not
17 going to redesignate a parcel that large to
18 Commercial without going through the process that.
19 we're going through tonight, because we needed to
20 look at all of the details and everything.
21 The Comprehensive Plan was never set up to be
22 the end thing that nothing is ever going to change.
23 If somebody comes up with something that will work
24 and will fit in with the neighbors, we have an
25 obligation to look at that and try to work with
i
227
1 them because times change. Even in the last two
2 years since we did the Comprehensive Plan, land
3 values have gone up astronomically in Lakeville and
4 the price of that land is so expensive that you
5 can't afford to put businesses on there.
6 So we resigned to either leaving it empty for
7 years until we could put. a Best Buy. International
8 headquarters on it or looking at a plan like this.
9 I think their plan is a nice plan. I hope that it
10 ultimately goes through. If it doesn't, I think
11 the City is savvy enough to put protections in
12 place so we don't end up with paving the whole
13 thing over and putting a Burnsville Center in the
14 middle of it because Lakeville's better than that
15 and we've learned from what goes on around us.
16 As far as fitting in with the neighborhood,
17 I'm pleased that the neighbors to the north have
18 taken the time to get together and figure out what
19 they want and work with the developer to make sure
20 ~ that things work for them with their neighborhood,
21 and there will be a continuation of that process
22 farther on down the line, assuming that this makes.
23 it through us and also through the City .Council.
24 But we have zoning. ordinances in place that
25 specifically address when you have a business
228
1 adjacent to a residential area. We have a 20-foot
2 minimum green space buffer in-between, with visual
3 screening to a minimum height of six feet of tree
4 plantings., fences, whatever else you want to put.
5 So it's not just 185th between Target and having a
6 great view of all the cars driving around the
7 parking lot. There will be a significant barrier
8 there, both on the north end and also on the south
9 end.
10 And I think that this will work. It's good
11 that it's close to the interstate because it gives
12 it the visibility so it gets a lot of traffic and
13 can be successful and it also minimizes how many
14 neighborhoods .that traffic has to go through if
15 it's coming from someplace else... So I'm excited
16 about this proposal. I think it'll be_good for the
17 City.
18 And I didn't make up my mind before I came
19 here. I try to be very conscious of listening to
20 everybody's opinions. And it wasn't until well
21 after the public hearing that I decided which way I
22 was going to go on this because I think it is
23 important to consider everybody's. feelings and
24 opinions on a matter, but I think this is a good
25 plan and it will be good for the City.
229
l CHAIR DROTNING: Any other comments?
2 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: Mr.
3 Chairman.
4 CHAIR DROTNING: Mr. Erickson.
5 CITY ADMINISTRATOR ERICKSON: I owe you
6 an apology, Mr. Comer, because I stated earlier
7 this evening it just struck me now and I feel
8 bad about it. This is the second most impacted. I
9 apologize. When I said that, I did not include
10 Pulte homes in there and I should have because that
11 certainly is on the edge of this development. .And
12 since that's where you live, I think I want to
13 protect. my current level of employment.
14 COMMISSIONER COMER: You're covered now.
15 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Mr. Chair?
16 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Wulff.
17 COMMISSIONER WULFF: I have one more
18 comment as to those stipulations, the three things
19 to add. I think the first one is good. I think
20 the second :one and the third one have nothing to do
21 with what we've been asked to comment on today and
22 I'm not quite sure I understand why we should be
23 making recommendations for land uses on land. that
24 we haven't been asked a question about.
25 CHAIR DROTNING: Because those are the
230
l three stipulations from the EAC that were
2 COMMISSIONER WULFF: They weren't
3 originally generated by the EAC, were they?
4 CHAIR DROTNING: Can we have a
5 clarification. on that?
6 MR. LIGHT: Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIR DROTNING: And Commissioner Wulff.
8 MR. LIGHT: And Commissioner Wulff.
9 CHAIR DROTNING: Told you I get punchy
10 after 10:00.
it MR. LIGHT: It's late. Yes, I know. You
12 are correct in that and, as I stated earlier, the
13 first stipulation is what would go into the
14 Comprehensive Plan.
15 The other two, I guess what I'm standing
16 before you at this point saying is disregard. They
17 ended up to be very confusing to the EAC the other
18 evening and they are they were meant. as
19 advisory. I guess it's been talked about enough at
20 this point that there is really no action on it and
21 we can look at that at a much later time.
22 So, if you. would, disregard those, the number
23 two and number three, at least for the time being.
24 And if we pursue. that at a later time, that can be
25 a decision by the Commission.
231
1 CHAIR DROTNING: And those two
2 stipulations are: .one that would
3 MR. LIGHT: The first one dealt with
4 CHAIR DROTNING: No change in the zoning
5 on that parcel,. which isn't part of this proposal
6 anyhow?
7 MR. LIGHT: No.
8 CHAIR DROTNING: And the other one would
9 be hinting at a change in a commercial parcel?
10 MR. LIGHT: Yes.. :But again, so there's
11 no confusion, it wasn't intended asoffical action
12 that would go into the plan. I would recommend you
13 just delete those. and act, only if you are going to
14 act favorably, and include number one.
15 CHAIR DROTNING: And the disposition of
16 ~ the rest of the Commission is? Do we have a
17 consensus to just use number one?
18 (Affirmative responses.)
i9 CHAIR DROTNING: Number one would be: So
20 as to .maintain open space which is as required as
21 part of the office guided use on the property and
22 to assure the Acorn Heights residents of a
23 reasonable, natural buffer. The Comprehensive Plan
24 text should state that the environmentally
25 sensitive areas around the north and east borders
232
1 of the site totaling approximately 28 acres --.and
2 I think it's actually, the numbers are higher
3 than that, aren't they? Aren't there better
4 numbers than that?
5 MR. LIGHT: The area along the north and
6 the east is approximately 28 acres .and that is what
7 we would, at this point, recommend you .include in
8 the Amendment. The balance of the open space on
9 the property is in ponds, primarily,. and. they will
10 be automatically covered as part of the development
11 process and given to the City for maintenance and
12 ownership. So those don't have to be addressed.
13 Because of the size of the area on the north
14 and the east is wide, they made a special point of
15 those. And normally, the City doesn't get into
16 slopes or simply treed areas, so that's why those
17 are recognized.
18 CHAIR.DROTNING: Thank you, Mr. Licht.
19 "Totaling approximately 28 acres should be
20 protected from development through a conservation
21 easement or dedication to the City. The exact size
22 of this area will be resolved as part of the zoning
23 and subdivision reviews." So we have a stipulation
24 there. Any other comments? Did we miss. anything
25 that we need to tack on, carry along with this?
233
1 (No response.)
2 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. I would propose
3 that we would have actually two motions. The first
4 one Mr. Knutson, make sure I'm doing this right.
5 You were coaching me on making sure I do it right.
6 Then I forgot half of it. You being the legal
7 beagle tonight.
8 The form of the motion: One would be the
9 consideration of the application and then
10 essentially what I read to begin with and then
11 directing staff to prepare findings of fact to
12 bring back to us you know, based on our
13 discussion, to bring back to us at the next
14 Planning Commission meeting on the, what, 22nd, I
15 believe it is. And then the other motion would be
16 whatever stipulations we think are appropriate..
17 CITY ATTORNEY KNUTSON: That would be
18 appropriate.
19 CHAIR DROTNING: So I did do it right?
20 CITY ATTORNEY KNUTSON: So far.
21 CHAIR DROTNING: That's why he's here.
22 So we would need a motion as we read earlier and
23 then directing staff to prepare findings of fact
24 based on our discussions tonight. Motion from
25 somebody. I.can't do it.
234
1 COMMISSIONER WULFF: So the findings of
2 fact are a separate motion? All the rest goes
3 rolled into one?
4 CHAIR DROTNING: They can be part of this
5 motion and roll it into findings of fact stay on
6 this motion.
7 COMMISSIONER WULFF: And then the
8 stipulations are the other motion?
9 CHAIR DROTNING: Are a separate motion.
10 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Okay. Mr. Chair?
11 CHAIR DROTNING: Commissioner Wulff.
12 COMMISSIONER WULFF: I move that we
13 recommend approval to the City Council of the
14 application of The Avalon Real Estate Group,
15 L.L.C., for an amendment to the 2020 Land .Use Plan.•
16 The amendment would change the land use designation
17 from Office Park/Business Campus to Commercial on
18 approximately 96 acres of land for the proposed
19 TimberCrest at Lakeville project, located north of
20 County Road 60, 185th Street, east of Interstate
21 35, and west of County Road 50, Kenrick Trail, and
22 would direct staff to prepare the findings of fact
23 for approval at the next meeting.
24 CHAIR DROTNING: We have a motion and a
25 second. Any further discussion? Oh, I need a
235
1 second. I'm sorry.
2 COMMISSIONER COMER: Second.
3 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. There we go.
4 Trying to keep moving. Time for another one of
5 Karl's breaks. We have a motion and a second. Any
6 further discussion?
7 (No response.)
8 CHAIR DROTNING: Would you call the roll,
9 please.
10 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
it COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Aye.
12 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
13 COMMISSIONER KOT: Aye.
14 SECRETARY BREVIG: Drotning?
15 CHAIR DROTNING: Aye.
16 SECRETARY BREVIG: Comer?
17 COMMISSIONER COMER: Aye.
18 SECRETARY BREVIG: Detjen?
19 COMMISSIONER.DETJEN: Aye.
20 SECRETARY BREVIG: Wulff?
21 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Aye.
22 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
23 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Aye.
24 (Whereupon, Motion 01.17 was passed.)
25 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. Then the next.
236.
1 motion would be the stipulation. Someone else's
2 ~ turn. Stipulation would be the. first
3 recommendation that came through the EAC. I will
4 read it and someone can make it.
5 "So as to maintain the open space which is
6 required as part of .the current office guided use
7 on the property and to assure that Acorn Heights
8 residents have a reasonable natural buffer, the
9 Comprehensive Plan text should state that the
10 environmentally sensitive areas along the north and
it -east borders of the site, totaling approximately 28
12 acres, should be protected from development through
13 a conservation easement or dedication to the City."
14 We need a motion.
15 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: So moved.
16 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. Second?
17 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Second.
18 CHAIR DROTNING: Roll call, please.
19 SECRETARY BREVIG: Kot?
20 COMMISSIONER KOT: Aye.
21 SECRETARY BREVIG: Drotning?
22 CHAIR DROTNING: Aye.
23 SECRETARY BREVIG: Comer?
24 COMMISSIONER COMER: Aye.
25 SECRETARY BREVIG: Detjen?
237
1 COMMISSIONER DETJEN: Aye.
2 SECRETARY BREVIG: Wulff?
3 COMMISSIONER WULFF: Aye.
4 SECRETARY BREVIG: Michaud?
5 COMMISSIONER MICHAUD: Aye.
6 SECRETARY BREVIG: Bellows?
7 COMMISSIONER BELLOWS: Aye.
8 ~ (Whereupon, Motion 01.18 was passed.)
9 CHAIR DROTNING: We would then have this
10 back at our next. Planning Commission meeting to
11 review the findings of fact as prepared and make a
12 final vote on the project or the proposal.
13 Excuse me.
14 Next agenda item is New Business. We have
15 before us Future and Continued Planning Commission
16 Agenda Items and Summary of City. Council Actions on
17 Planning Commission Agenda Items. Any fu-rther
18 staff notices?
19 COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT DIRECTOR GRUSSING:
20 Mr. Chairman, there's one thing I wanted to add to
21 the meeting for next week. There will be two. .
22 conditional use permit extensions: One for the
23 latchkey program for Independent School District
24 194 extension, and also a request for an extension
25 for the Mormon Church is the other one that's going
238
1 to be on.
2 CHAIR DROTNING: Okay. Thank you very
3 much. Out next Planning Commission meeting will be
4 on March 22nd of 2001. There being no further
5 business, this meeting is adjourned.
6
7 (Time noted: 12:13 p.m., Thursday, March 15, 2001.)
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5 STATE OF MINNESOTA)
ss.
6 COUNTY OF DAKOTA. )
7
8 CERTIFICATE
9
10 I, Debra M. McCauley, Court Reporter and
11 Notary Public for the State of Minnesota, County of
12 Dakota, hereby certify that the foregoing is a true and
13 correct transcript of the proceedings as herein set out.
14
15
Dated
17
18
C L/
19 C _
Debr McCauley Polla d
20 Paradigm Reporting & Captioning Inc.
.1400 Rand Tower
21 527 Marquette Avenue
Minneapolis, Minnesota. 55402-1331
22 (612) 339-0545
23
24
25
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt"" addressing -architecture
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ beyond -center
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt"K centers -comments
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ Commerce -consider
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ considerable -deceive
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Planning Commission Meeting -.3/15/01 CondenseIt~ figured -gracious
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ grade - I-35
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~`1" idea -isolated
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Paradigm Reporting & Captioning Inc. (612) 339-0545 Index Page 14
Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt•`~'` issue -leaped
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~""` learn -matter
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt'~`"` matters - Mr
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt"" Mrs -occasions
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ occupational -part
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~`~'` pointing -public
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ register -road
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~ sign -stage
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~'` staged -Target
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseItl'~ Target's -traffic
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Planning Commission Meeting - 3/15/01 CondenseIt~"°` traffic-related -Village
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